Judy Taylor wrote:
DAVEH: Thanx Judy......I learn something every day! (And forget twice as much, twice as fast!!!)
DAVEH: ??? That's a new one on me......What is TTYTT?Judy:
It's "To tell you the truth" in cyberspeak
DAVEH: This would seemingly apply to many millions orDAVEH: Surely you can't be serious?!?!?!?! There must be billions who've lived without hearing the name of Jesus, let alone having the chance to hear and accept the gospel. How many children (of non-Christian people) die on a daily basis.....it must number in the tens of thousands.
even billions of children who have died without having any
knowledge of Jesus, would it not?Judy:
Maybe, although I doubt there are many who have not heard
of Jesus
and we know that every person born is aware thatDAVEH: Do you really think children are aware of that? And.....how about newborn infants, or those who die from abortions? Can any of them be responsible for that??? This is one area I have a very hard time understanding the rationale of Protestant theology. It seems to condemn to a torturous fate those who have
there is a God by the creation around them so if they do not
choose to seek Him then they will be responsible for that.
JustDAVEH: I don't understand why you say that. Let's take a couple examples..... How about an infant born to a Chinese peasant a few hundred years ago. Suppose that infant died a week or two after being born.....what opportunity did that child have to believe in Jesus? Or......how about a person born somewhere in the world far outside the realm of Israel prior to Jesus' birth. Perhaps that person lived to be 5 years old before he died without hearing a word of Jesus' name or gospel. Will he be condemned to that fiery pit for not knowing about Jesus? I think it would be short sighted to think there are less than many millions (and probably well over a billion) such souls who've died without knowing about Jesus. Are you suggesting God is going to consign them all to hell with no chance of redemption?
eight persons came through the big flood.DAVEH:
To my LDS biased beliefs, this comes as a real shock when
you suggest. Scripture tells us that those who do not believe
are condemned already and this speaks of everyone no matter
what their age. Other TTers have said essentially the same thing.Judy:
Why? Everyone has the same opportunity to know Him
andDAVEH: Then how did Protestantism come up with such a harsh doctrine that (to me) portrays God as being willing to punitively without just cause physically torture people forever? This just doesn't make sense to me, Judy. Are there any Christians who feel good about believing such is true doctrine?
God is not a respecter of any man's person. He is patient and
longsuffering and not willing that any should perish.
Those of usDAVEH: Are we on the same page, Judy? I'm referring to infants who die and are then cast into the fiery pit to be physically tortured and burned forever. What darkness do these helpless babes choose?
who do will do so by our own choice, not His.DAVEH:
When it comes to infants, this doctrine apparently allows for
no mercy from God.Judy:
His very nature is love and mercy but men choose darkness
rather than light because their deeds are evil.
DAVEH:DAVEH: You seem to be avoiding discussing infants who die without knowing Jesus. What is their reality in your opinion, Judy? Do you really believe they are going to be cast into the fiery lake to be physically tortured forever?
I have had some tell me that it may be tough on the little
critters, but that is the way God is. Wow.....That's pretty
harsh, IMHO.Judy:
I guess if we crafted a God to our own specifications we wouldn't
have one like that would we? We would follow the lust of the
flesh and follow sensuality and believe He should serve us anyway
but the reality isn't like that.
DAVEH:DAVEH: Why else would God do it? IMO, if he had not had them destroy everything, whatever hadn't been destroyed would have eventually ended up corrupting the Hebrews. What other reason do you think he would have destroyed everything....including their stuff? It isn't like the stuff deserved to be consigned to hell for sinning.... Do you see it differently, Judy?
You suggested you weren't sure about non-believers' children
who die......but, what about the infants of believers? Wouldn't
they suffer the same fate? What is the difference?Judy:
King David was a covenant person and when the baby he had
with Bathsheba died his comment was that he could go to be
with the child but the child would not return to them. From
this I assume the child went to Abraham's bosom.I do know that the curse comes down through generations
You can see it in the life of Ham who incurred God's anger for
disrespecting his father. Ham's grandson was Canaan, head of
the Canaanite nations who went from bad to worse, were
judged and lost their land to the seed of Abraham. By the time
their iniquity was full God wanted every man, woman, and
child destroyed along with their stuff.DAVEH: The key is the stuff........I believe it was to be a
lesson for the Hebrews rather than a punishment on the
children who were destroyed.Judy:
I don't think God has whole people groups killed just for a
lesson for the Hebrews.
In fact he made the Hebrews waitDAVEH: Hmmmmm.........judgment is extended to the animals and other non inanimate stuff? Seems a bit strange to me. Is that your opinion, or is it commonly accepted in Protestantism?
for 400yrs until the iniquity of the Amorites was fulfilled
before he let Israel go in and destroy them. On another
occasion King Saul was judged and lost the kingdom for
sparing the best of the spoil when he was told to kill and
destroy it all. No, it is judgment. God puts up with all He
can stand and then He puts an end to it.
DAVEH:DAVEH: Perhaps I am prematurely drawing conclusions based on what you told me, such as.......
In LDS theology, those kids would still have the opportunity
to accept Jesus in the post mortal life. But from what TTers
(including you, apparently) have told me......those kids will be
tossed into the flames of hell....Judy:
I haven't told you any such thing.
Scripture tells us that those who do not believe are condemned
already
and this speaks of everyone no matter what their age.
........And then you said you didn't believe in purgatory. I assumed you believe children who do not accept Jesus would be cast into the lake of fire. Am I wrong in assuming you believe that, Judy?
I have said 'I am not sure'DAVEH: Whew.......! I don't think I could ever change to believing God is going to act like a tyrannical dictator who enjoys physically torturing people forever, especially when the may have had no choice in the matter. I just don't think that is the message I hear from the Bible, Judy.
but there are some examples in scripture where God told
Israel to kill every man, woman, child, and beast to get rid
of the taint of sin and at one point he destroyed the known
world because of it. You may think God harsh but if you
spent time in His Word and sought to learn His ways your
views would change.
In the parable Jesus told where theDAVEH: There is a big difference between what I believe God is like, and what Protestantism teaches about God condemning those he presumably loves to eternal physical torture. And, that is why I am on TT......to find out how/why seemingly normal people such as yourself can worship a God who does things like that. Do you have some passages you'd kindly share as evidence that God is really that cruel? Where does that belief come from Judy, or is it more of a Protestant tradition that leads folks to believe that way?
servant hid his talent because he judged God to be a harsh
taskmaster he was called "a wicked servant" so I take it that
misrepresenting Him is akin to blaspheming.
Judy
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Dave Hansen
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http://www.langlitz.com
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