DAVEH: Are Protestants so calloused that they do not see a conflict
between worshipping a God of love, and one who would
cast helpless children into a burning lake of fire and brimstone?
Does that concern you as it does me, Judy?
between worshipping a God of love, and one who would
cast helpless children into a burning lake of fire and brimstone?
Does that concern you as it does me, Judy?
When you grow up to be a god on your own planet, you can do it your way. ![]()
Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
DAVEH: Surely you can't be serious?!?!?!?! There must
be billions who've lived without hearing the name of Jesus,
let alone having the chance to hear and accept the gospel.
How many children (of non-Christian people) die on a daily
basis.....it must number in the tens of thousands.
Judy:
I leave that problem with God. After all, He is the one who is
sovereign, all knowing, all loving, and all powerful. Math was
never my forte. We know that every person born is aware that
there is a God by the creation around them so if they do not
choose to seek Him then they will be responsible for that and
their children will also suffer for their ignorance.
DAVEH:
Do you really think children are aware of that? And.....how
about newborn infants, or those who die from abortions? Can
any of them be responsible for that???
Judy:
I'm not the judge, God is. All I know is that when a human
dies the spirit returns to the one who gave it which is God.
Then they either stand or fall at the resurrection of the dead.
DAVEH:
This is one area I have a very hard time understanding the
rationale of Protestant theology. It seems to condemn to a
torturous fate those who have little no choice.
Judy:
It only appears to be this way to the natural mind - However,
God is still on the throne and along with being Sovereign,
all knowing, all loving, and all powerful. He is perfectly just
so I wouldn't want to accuse Him in this area.
DAVEH:
This is one area that I find extremely interesting in my
search for understanding why Protestants feel so comfortable
with what seems to me such a horrific doctrine. Do Protestants
ever ponder whether or not such a doctrine is correct, when
the outcome is so contra-Biblical?
Judy:
I don't know what ALL Protestants believe and like Kevin I
don't consider myself to be Protestant. (I'm not protesting
anything); the majority according to Barna are biblically
illiterate - even so, I'm not sure what you mean when you
say contra-Biblical.
DAVEH:
(And please realize that I am viewing it from my LDS biased
perspective.....When I read the Bible, I see so many passages
that suggest that children are special in God's eyes----I just can't
imagine Him cruelly and torturously punishing them for something
they have no control over.)
Judy:
If you and Blaine are of the same mindset then you read more
into what Jesus spoke about children in the gospels than what
he was actually saying... also remember that He was sent to the
lost children of the house of Israel which means that these were
the children of his Covenant people which were given the Good
News of the Kingdom first.
DAVEH:
Are Protestants so calloused that they do not see a conflict
between worshipping a God of love, and one who would
cast helpless children into a burning lake of fire and brimstone?
Does that concern you as it does me, Judy?
Judy:
I am more concerned over ppl with rose tinted eyeglasses
who are blind to the other side of God and this is every bit
as dangerous. He is also a jealous God and a God of
judgment. We don't need to get lopsided either way.
DAVEH:
Are we on the same page, Judy? I'm referring to
infants who die and are then cast into the fiery pit to be
physically tortured and burned forever. What darkness do
these helpless babes choose?
Judy:
Possibly they are victims of their parents choices. I've just
been reading in the minor prophets and when King Josiah
instituted his reforms he said "Great is the wrath of the Lord
that is poured out upon us because our fathers have not kept the
word of the Lord to do after all that is written in this book"
(2 Chron 34:21) .... Now this would apply in every generation
and it would include their wives, children, and infants.
DAVEH:
You seem to be avoiding discussing infants who die without
knowing Jesus. What is their reality in your opinion, Judy?
Do you really believe they are going to be cast into the fiery
lake to be physically tortured forever?
Judy:
I'm not into speculating about anything having to do with God,
His Word or His ways DaveH and there are some things I don't
know, I'm still a learner but when I see it in His Word I will let
you know. I don't think God has whole people groups
killed just for a lesson for the Hebrews.
DAVEH:
Why else would God do it? IMO, if he had not had them
destroy everything, whatever hadn't been destroyed would have
eventually ended up corrupting the Hebrews. What other reason
do you think he would have destroyed everything....including
their stuff? It isn't like the stuff deserved to be consigned to
hell for sinning.... Do you see it differently, Judy?
Judy:
What has been written isn't ONLY an example to the Hebrews, it
is for everyone (see Romans 15:4)
DAVEH:
Hmmmmm.........judgment is extended to the animals
and other non inanimate stuff? Seems a bit strange to me. Is
that your opinion, or is it commonly accepted in Protestantism?
Judy:
How many times do I have to say DaveH that I don't care how
many opinions are out there. I am interested in what God has
to say in His Word and when I see it there I will accept it as
Truth.
DAVEH:
Whew.......! I don't think I could ever change to believing God
is going to act like a tyrannical dictator who enjoys physically
torturing people forever, especially when the may have had no
choice in the matter. I just don't think that is the message I hear
from the Bible, Judy.
Judy:
Where would you get the idea that God "enjoys" this kind of thing.
He says He takes no joy in the death of the wicked... but then I
guess once you open the floodgates of your mind to all the
extraneous stuff you can likely believe anything. In the parable
Jesus tells how the servant hid his talent because he judged God
to be a harsh taskmaster was called "a wicked servant" so I take
it that misrepresenting Him is akin to blaspheming.
DAVEH:
There is a big difference between what I believe God is like, and
what Protestantism teaches about God condemning those he
presumably loves to eternal physical torture.
Judy:
I would appreciate it if you stop quoting "what Protestantism teaches"
DaveH because this means nothing to me and is no basis for any
kind of understanding.
DAVEH:
And, that is why I am on TT......to find out how/why seemingly
normal people such as yourself can worship a God who does things
like that. Do you have some passages you'd kindly share as evidence
that God is really that cruel? Where does that belief come from Judy,
or is it more of a Protestant tradition that leads folks to believe that
way?
Judy:
I have no idea where you got this idea DaveH. I have never and would
not ever call God cruel, unjust, unreasonable, unloving, or uncaring
and if you do, then that is between Him and you.
Judy
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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