From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> DAVEH: Surely you can't be serious?!?!?!?! There must be billions who've lived without hearing the name of Jesus, let alone having the chance to hear and accept the gospel. How many children (of non-Christian people) die on a daily basis.....it must number in the tens of thousands.
Judy: I leave that problem with God. After all, He is the one who is sovereign, all knowing, all loving, and all powerful. Math was never my forte. We know that every person born is aware that there is a God by the creation around them so if they do not choose to seek Him then they will be responsible for that and their children will also suffer for their ignorance. DAVEH: Do you really think children are aware of that? And.....how about newborn infants, or those who die from abortions? Can any of them be responsible for that??? Judy: I'm not the judge, God is. All I know is that when a human dies the spirit returns to the one who gave it which is God. Then they either stand or fall at the resurrection of the dead. DAVEH: This is one area I have a very hard time understanding the rationale of Protestant theology. It seems to condemn to a torturous fate those who have little no choice. Judy: It only appears to be this way to the natural mind - However, God is still on the throne and along with being Sovereign, all knowing, all loving, and all powerful. He is perfectly just so I wouldn't want to accuse Him in this area. DAVEH: This is one area that I find extremely interesting in my search for understanding why Protestants feel so comfortable with what seems to me such a horrific doctrine. Do Protestants ever ponder whether or not such a doctrine is correct, when the outcome is so contra-Biblical? Judy: I don't know what ALL Protestants believe and like Kevin I don't consider myself to be Protestant. (I'm not protesting anything); the majority according to Barna are biblically illiterate - even so, I'm not sure what you mean when you say contra-Biblical. DAVEH: (And please realize that I am viewing it from my LDS biased perspective.....When I read the Bible, I see so many passages that suggest that children are special in God's eyes----I just can't imagine Him cruelly and torturously punishing them for something they have no control over.) Judy: If you and Blaine are of the same mindset then you read more into what Jesus spoke about children in the gospels than what he was actually saying... also remember that He was sent to the lost children of the house of Israel which means that these were the children of his Covenant people which were given the Good News of the Kingdom first. DAVEH: Are Protestants so calloused that they do not see a conflict between worshipping a God of love, and one who would cast helpless children into a burning lake of fire and brimstone? Does that concern you as it does me, Judy? Judy: I am more concerned over ppl with rose tinted eyeglasses who are blind to the other side of God and this is every bit as dangerous. He is also a jealous God and a God of judgment. We don't need to get lopsided either way. DAVEH: Are we on the same page, Judy? I'm referring to infants who die and are then cast into the fiery pit to be physically tortured and burned forever. What darkness do these helpless babes choose? Judy: Possibly they are victims of their parents choices. I've just been reading in the minor prophets and when King Josiah instituted his reforms he said "Great is the wrath of the Lord that is poured out upon us because our fathers have not kept the word of the Lord to do after all that is written in this book" (2 Chron 34:21) .... Now this would apply in every generation and it would include their wives, children, and infants. DAVEH: You seem to be avoiding discussing infants who die without knowing Jesus. What is their reality in your opinion, Judy? Do you really believe they are going to be cast into the fiery lake to be physically tortured forever? Judy: I'm not into speculating about anything having to do with God, His Word or His ways DaveH and there are some things I don't know, I'm still a learner but when I see it in His Word I will let you know. <big snip> I don't think God has whole people groups killed just for a lesson for the Hebrews. DAVEH: Why else would God do it? IMO, if he had not had them destroy everything, whatever hadn't been destroyed would have eventually ended up corrupting the Hebrews. What other reason do you think he would have destroyed everything....including their stuff? It isn't like the stuff deserved to be consigned to hell for sinning.... Do you see it differently, Judy? Judy: What has been written isn't ONLY an example to the Hebrews, it is for everyone (see Romans 15:4) DAVEH: Hmmmmm.........judgment is extended to the animals and other non inanimate stuff? Seems a bit strange to me. Is that your opinion, or is it commonly accepted in Protestantism? Judy: How many times do I have to say DaveH that I don't care how many opinions are out there. I am interested in what God has to say in His Word and when I see it there I will accept it as Truth. <snip> DAVEH: Whew.......! I don't think I could ever change to believing God is going to act like a tyrannical dictator who enjoys physically torturing people forever, especially when the may have had no choice in the matter. I just don't think that is the message I hear from the Bible, Judy. Judy: Where would you get the idea that God "enjoys" this kind of thing. He says He takes no joy in the death of the wicked... but then I guess once you open the floodgates of your mind to all the extraneous stuff you can likely believe anything. In the parable Jesus tells how the servant hid his talent because he judged God to be a harsh taskmaster was called "a wicked servant" so I take it that misrepresenting Him is akin to blaspheming. DAVEH: There is a big difference between what I believe God is like, and what Protestantism teaches about God condemning those he presumably loves to eternal physical torture. Judy: I would appreciate it if you stop quoting "what Protestantism teaches" DaveH because this means nothing to me and is no basis for any kind of understanding. DAVEH: And, that is why I am on TT......to find out how/why seemingly normal people such as yourself can worship a God who does things like that. Do you have some passages you'd kindly share as evidence that God is really that cruel? Where does that belief come from Judy, or is it more of a Protestant tradition that leads folks to believe that way? Judy: I have no idea where you got this idea DaveH. I have never and would not ever call God cruel, unjust, unreasonable, unloving, or uncaring and if you do, then that is between Him and you. Judy ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
