David,
Please understand, I am not trying to speak for John on this one. I just
can't let it pass us by.
David asks John > So are you saying that God is deceived, that what he
considers in his mind does not correspond with reality? It almost sounds
like you are saying God is insane. I know you are not saying that. I'm
just telling you how it comes across to me.
David, for a very long time, long before coming to my present state of mind
concerning this question, I was concerned about what the Reformation
doctrine of "penal substitution" or "substitutionary atonement," was
teaching us in reference to God. This is the view which states that God
transfers or imputes our sinfulness to Christ, and his righteousness to us.
He then dies with our sins heaped upon his shoulders, suffering the fury of
his Father's wrath for something he did not do. We then receive a wink from
God when we come to faith which says, I'll call you righteous even though we
both know you're not. David I don't blame you or anyone for not buying into
this deception. This theory has dominated conservative Christian thinking
for many centuries now. Don't believe it. It is a legal fiction -- legal in
that God decrees or declares you righteous; fiction in that we all know it
isn't true.
I do not blame you for moving away from this. It is not biblical. This stuff
about God beating the hell out of his Son for three hours is demonic (excuse
me, I need to calm down). David, hear me well, my brother, you don't have to
go the direction you are going to get out from under this terrible teaching.
There is something so much better than heaping the whole weight of your
salvation upon your own shoulders. There's something so much better than
thinking that this must be the case because God must otherwise be deceived.
I am not saying that Christians have to sin. In fact, I do not believe we
have to sin. But we cannot stand up under the weight of sin, not when its
hoisted upon our shoulders. That weight will either scare you to hell, or it
will deceive you into self-righteousness. It will crush you in despair, or
it will force you to lie about your own existence. Please don't be upset
with me. I have been down that road. I have been on it and I hit the ditch,
hard. There is something much better. Stay on the course you are on in
Christ's humanity. Make room in your thinking for Christus Victor, the one
who defeats the tyrants. Allow for the go'el aspect of atonement, the
ontological regathering of humanity. Consider the priestly role of our
Savior, the one who is sympathetic to your plight. There is sanctification.
I agree with you. But it is sanctification set apart from the bondages of
any form of performance based Christianity.
I should probably calm down for a while. I told Judy I would. I think I
must.
I love you, brother.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:APRIL FOOLS DAY???
> John wrote:
> > ... David Miller. ... A works salvationist?
> > I don't think so.
>
> No, I am not a works salvationist, but I can tell by the label that we
> might have some discussing to do. I believe in Christian perfection
> much like John Wesley did.
>
> John wrote:
> > ... actually all first year greek grammars present
> > the kind of verb ending(s) I used in my post.
> > (I have Summers and Mounce on my shelves). I am
> > kind of startled that this would be an issue.
> > ... Present indicative active gives us activity
> > WITH NO END IN VIEW. That does not mean the action
> > is on going but it can mean that -- and very
> > often does. ... Do you have reference material that
> > condemns "my" application of the greek tense?
> > I don't think so. But if so, I certainly can change
> > my mind.
>
> As you are well aware, we need to consider context concerning whether or
> not the continuous concept might apply. I have checked at least a dozen
> translations of the verses you mentioned, and I have found nobody that
> follows your translation. I have considered it myself, but I think the
> context does not fit. I was simply asking you if you knew of any other
> Greek scholar who would translate these verses this way. I guess the
> answer is no?
>
> Because you quoted Mounce, let me quote him concerning the present
> active indicative verb. "The present active indicative verb in Greek is
> basically the same as in English. It describes an action that usually
> occurs in the present. It can be either a continuous ("I am studying")
> or undefined ("I study") action. We recommend using a continuous
> translation by default, and if it does not fit the context switch to the
> undefined."
>
> So my question still stands concerning whether or not you know of any
> other Greek scholars who have translated these passages the way you
> have. You used an English participle to force continuous action in the
> translation. Do you know of any published translation that also has
> done this?
>
> John wrote:
> > ... stark raving and absolute sinlessness is a
> > consideration in the mind of God -- not an
> > actual event in our lives.
>
> So are you saying that God is deceived, that what he considers in his
> mind does not correspond with reality? It almost sounds like you are
> saying God is insane. I know you are not saying that. I'm just telling
> you how it comes across to me.
>
> >From my perspective, we actually do become new creatures in Christ. I
> have experienced this, and I assume that others have too.
>
> John wrote:
> > God CONSIDERS our faith to be righteousness.
>
> And faith actually creates righteousness in us, as miraculously as life
> came into the body of Lazarus when he was raised from the dead.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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----------
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