Re: [TruthTalk] Re:APRIL FOOLS DAY???

[Terry Clifton]

David Miller wrote: John wrote: ... David Miller. ... A works salvationist? I don't think so. No, I am not a works salvationist, but I can tell by the label that we might have some discussing to do. I believe in Christian perfection much like John Wesley did. John wrote: ... actually all first year greek grammars present the kind of verb ending(s) I used in my post. (I have Summers and Mounce on my shelves). I am kind of startled that this would be an issue. ... Present indicative active gives us activity WITH NO END IN VIEW. That does not mean the action is on going but it can mean that -- and very often does. ... Do you have reference material that condemns "my" application of the greek tense? I don't think so. But if so, I certainly can change my mind. As you are well aware, we need to consider context concerning whether or not the continuous concept might apply. I have checked at least a dozen translations of the verses you mentioned, and I have found nobody that follows your translation. I have considered it myself, but I think the context does not fit. I was simply asking you if you knew of any other Greek scholar who would translate these verses this way. I guess the answer is no? Because you quoted Mounce, let me quote him concerning the present active indicative verb. "The present active indicative verb in Greek is basically the same as in English. It describes an action that usually occurs in the present. It can be either a continuous ("I am studying") or undefined ("I study") action. We recommend using a continuous translation by default, and if it does not fit the context switch to the undefined." So my question still stands concerning whether or not you know of any other Greek scholars who have translated these passages the way you have. You used an English participle to force continuous action in the translation. Do you know of any published translation that also has done this? John wrote: ... stark raving and absolute sinlessness is a consideration in the mind of God -- not an actual event in our lives. So are you saying that God is deceived, that what he considers in his mind does not correspond with reality? It almost sounds like you are saying God is insane. I know you are not saying that. I'm just telling you how it comes across to me. >From my perspective, we actually do become new creatures in Christ. I have experienced this, and I assume that others have too. John wrote: God CONSIDERS our faith to be righteousness. And faith actually creates righteousness in us, as miraculously as life came into the body of Lazarus when he was raised from the dead. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. Hey guys: I wouldn't know an indicative verb from a armadillo pimple, but I hardly ever let my ignorance get in the way of giving my opinion, so how 'bout these onions?  The new testament says,"Be perfect".  It's there, no doubt about it.  HOWEVER, the old testament says,"Keep the law" with the same emphasis, and we know that no one has ever kept the law.  Both of these commands are the ideal.  They are the goal,..............but they are impossible goals!  There to make us see we need a Savior.  After twenty years of preaching Christ and suffering for Him, Paul still considered himself a sinner.  I am with Paul. I am a new creature in Christ, not because I am perfect, but because I am forgiven.  I would love to be perfect. I try hard never to sin, but my Savior knew I would sometimes do what I hate.  He said so, "The Spirit is willing, but this old flesh is weak.  I do not have to do evil to sin, I just have to have an evil thought and dwell on it a moment too long.  That is my definition of sin. ( in the indictable partipoople with red consononts) Terry