Charles Perry Locke wrote:
David, here is one of the quotes that indicates this:
Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 1, Page 51
1852, "Jesus our Elder Brother was begotten in the flesh by the same
character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in
Heaven."
I read "begotten in the flesh" to mean "producedy sexually".
DAVEH: That is why you misunderstand this, Perry. To me, begotten in
the flesh refers to Jesus physical birth rather than his spirit birth.
In both cases, Jesus was begotten, but there needs to be a way to
distinguish the two instances. I know of no LDS folks who would
understand "begotten in the flesh" the same way you just did.
IF you honestly did not understand that, OK.....Now you should
understand how we perceive it and I would assume in the future you will
not try to make it sound as though Mormons believe God had sex with
Mary.
And, it purportedly was "Adam", a.k.a. the LDS "god the
father", that did the begetting. This is why I believe it was a
physical union.
DAVEH: You can believe whatever you like. The problem is when you try
to impose your understanding of what I (or Mormons in general) believe
on others. Telling others that Mormons believe God had sex with
Mary simply is not factual. I know it has a big impressional
impact on non-LDS to hear that. They must think WOW....What weirdos.
But when you read all the quotes that Kevin posted yesterday referring
to this, it is contextually quite obvious that each of those men were
trying to point out that Mormon theology teaches that Jesus is
literally the Son of God, as opposed to apparent Protestant leanings
which suggest his parentage is at best of the Holy Ghost.
You said, "OK Perry.....once again
FTR......LDS doctrine is very specific about Mary.....She was a
virgin. Furthermore, I do believe God the Father is Jesus' literal
father. Do you not believe both those concepts, Perry?
Literally, as in "had sex with"?
DAVEH: No. Literally as in there is some form of genetic material
(for the lack of a better way of describing it) from our Heavenly
Father involved in the conception of Jesus. How that material got
there, I do not know other than I believe it was done by the power of
the Holy Ghost.
Like your father literally had sex with your mother to
beget you? No.
DAVEH: You are interpreting this as you want to, not as LDS folks
understand it. So if you want to be accurate, it seems to me that you
should say: The LDS quotes you've read seem like they are
inferring that God had sex with Mary, but Mormons do not interpret it
in that way.
The son (a.k.a the Word) is God (John 1:1), as the Father is God. They
are one (in more than purpose, also being one in essence), and neither
of them preceded the other.
The Holy Spirit is also God, as the Son and the Father are, and of the
same essence. God caused Mary, before she had known a man, to become
with child supernaturally via the Holy Spirit. This was a miracle, not
a "begetting in the flesh".
The sonship of Jesus relative to the Father is because Jesus was born
of a woman via the Holy Spirit. This was a miracle, not a "begetting in
the flesh" by the Father.
BTW, I had a discussion with a LDS Missionary a few years back, and he
denied that Mary was a virgin when she became with the child Jesus.
DAVEH: I find that very hard to believe, Perry. I'm not suggesting
you are a liar at all, but rather you either misunderstood the
missionary, or he was very ignorant of LDS thought/belief. Though I
have never in my 48 years of being LDS heard anybody suggest Mary was
anything other than a virgin at Jesus' birth (and that is canonally
scriptural ), I do suppose it is possible to find an LDS person who is
less than a brick or two short of a full hod.
When I asked him why the Bible said she was a virgin, he
explained that "Virgin" merely meant "young woman", not "had never
known a man". I thought these guys were trained well in LDS beliefs,
but I guess not as well as I thought.
DAVEH: I agree.
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] false notions
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:01:02 -0800
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
DavidH,
If I produce a statement from one of the LDS prophets that says it
WAS a physical union,
DAVEH: Have you got a quote that Kevin did not offer? I do not recall
anything Kevin quoted as using the term, PHYSICAL UNION. So.....please
post it, Perry. I'd be interested in seeing it, as I've never seen
anything that has said such in LDS literature yet. (But.....I'm a slow
reader!) :-)
will you change your position? Or will you
deny that the one who stated it was a prophet?
DAVEH: Until you quote something, Perry.....what is there to deny,
other than your highly biased desire to make TTers think I believe
something that I don't believe. Why are you taking such a round-a-bout
path to shoot your big guns? As I said below.......
Please quote the passage you think applies and I'll explain it as I
understand it.
.......Why do you not just toss out what you're referring to so we can
talk about it. I've got to tell you, it is hard to defend my beliefs
against innuendo and veiled comments that are meant to hide that you
lack what you imply. (Yikes......That was sure worded awkwardly!!!)
Now Perry......I asked you below......
/
OK Perry.....once again FTR......LDS doctrine is very specific about
Mary.....She was a virgin. Furthermore, I do believe God the Father
is Jesus' literal father. Do you not believe both those concepts,
Perry?/
......and you failed to answer. Perry, I don't mind telling you what I
believe (when asked), but is there a reason you do not afford me the
same courtesy?
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] false notions
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 07:24:17 -0800
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
David, you are denying what several of
your own prophets have stated.
DAVEH: No, Perry. I am denying the spin you are putting on their
words.
Have you not seen the multitude of
references that Kevin has provided that indicate such?
DAVEH: No.....I have not. The references I have seen have *not *said
/God had physical sex with Mary/. So I do not understand why you
continue saying that we do believe that, despite me telling you
previously that it is not LDS doctrine or teaching.
Are you saying that they were NOT
prophets, and had no authority, or were they wrong on just this one
occasion?
DAVEH: Please quote the passage you think applies and I'll explain it
as I understand it.
Please set me straight. Explain to me
the DH understanding of the relationship between the LDS god and Mary
that produced Jesus' earthly body. If it differs from the LDS
teachings, please tell me what the LDS believe about this.
DAVEH: OK Perry.....once again FTR......LDS doctrine is very specific
about Mary.....She was a virgin. Furthermore, I do believe God the
Father is Jesus' literal father. Do you not believe both those
concepts, Perry?
I also believe there is a genetic (if that is the correct word)
connection between God the Father and His Only Begotten Son, Jesus that
took place by virtue of the power of the Holy Ghost. That does not
mean that the HG created Jesus. But rather Jesus was conceived in the
womb from genetic (as best as I understand it) material of both the
Heavenly Father and Mary without a physical/sexual union that would
disqualify Mary's virginity.
Now that you presumably understand what I just explained,
Perry.....will you continue expounding that we believe the opposite?
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] false notions Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:04:33
-0800
DAVEH: Interestingly.....Perry you have once again quoted /He had
physical sex with Mary/ which I have several times denied to be LDS
doctrine on TT. Why do you make such a claim when you know it to be
false? Did you think I lied to you?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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