David writes > Furthermore,
your rendering of the 1 John 5:18 passage mangles the Greek. I know that
you understand Greek, so please read the Greek text here. You have
rendered "pas ho" as "the One," seemingly ignoring the word "pas" which means
"all." The first part of verse 18 should read, "We know that everyone who
has been born of God sins not," yet you translate it as, ""We know most
assuredly that the One who has been born from (Gk. ex = out of or from) God does
not sin." Surely you can see that you do not do properly handle the Greek
phrase "pas ho." I would very much like to see you either justify your
handling the Greek this way, or acknowledge your mistake. I'm not jabbing
at you. I wish you could see my demeanor. I truly desire to see some
serious consideration and explanation. We are just talking here, so let's
not get our feathers ruffled. We are learning together.
Actually, David, I did not render pas ho
as "the One"; instead I rendered ho gegennamenos as "the One who
has been born." The word ho is the definite article nominative
masculine singular; the word gegennamenos is a
participle. This particular participle is a perfect passive nominative
masculine singular. In order to carry the perfect passive across into English I
translated it as "has been born." The KJV fails to convey the perfect passive in
v.18a; instead it conveys a present active. In 18b the participle
gennatheis is an aorist passive nominative masculine singular. In order
to carry the aorist passive across into English I translated it as "was born";
again the KJV fails to convey a proper aorist passive meaning; instead it
conveys a perfect passive. To get to the nominative masculine singular I
translated the first participle as "the One who" with the masculine emphasis
coming through in the rendering of the second participle as "He who."
Oidamen is a first person plural perfect
active indicative. It carries the idea of seeing or perceiving, which is closely
related to knowing or comprehending, and so I translated this verb as
"We know"; I could have equally accurately translated it as "We
perceive."
Pas is used here with an elative
significance, modifying oidamen and denoting the highest degree;
it should therefore be translated in a way which conveys the idea of all,
full, supreme, greatest, or most. In this
instance pas elevates the idea of
knowing to a status of certainty; hence "We know with all assurance" or "We
know full well" or "We know with great confidence" or "We know most
assuredly."
David, I hope this will be helpful. I'll leave the
rest of your comments to bear their own weight for the time being.
Thanks,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 10:16 AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
> > The question, as I see it, if we are to understand this
> > verse, is this: Who is it that keeps you from the wicked
> > one? Does this verse teach us that you keep yourself from
> > the wicked one?
> > ...
> > We only get into trouble with this passage when we assume
> > something about ourselves that is only true of our Savior.
> > Jesus Christ is the one who is without sin; he is the one
> > who has power over the evil one; he is the one who keeps us.
> > We understand this and know that it is true.
>
> We are agreed on this. He is the one who keeps us. We have no power to
> live holy without the Spirit of Christ living through us and doing it by
> the power of the Holy Spirit. Not to agree with this would cause one to
> fall into the error of Pelagianism.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > Did Peter keep himself from the evil one? Was he
> > able to do that? No. Peter needed to learn from
> > where his strength would come.
>
> This is true, but I also want to point out that this happened before
> Peter was baptized in the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that someone
> immersed in the Holy Spirit is unable to do the same sin, but I think
> that when one is baptized in the Holy Spirit, he receives an inner power
> that helps him tremendously in these situations.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > What is the Gnostic connection to this passage,
> > verse 18 in particular? ... Cerinthus, if indeed
> > it was Cerinthus, and his followers had rejected
> > Christ. Hence they were not of God; they were of
> > the world (see cf. 4.3-5).
>
> I agree that Cerinthus was of this world and not of God, but so were
> other Jews and other false prophets. I'm not sure the Gnostic
> connection is all that necessary to understand the passage. We could
> easily consider those who reject Christ in our time, especially
> religious false prophets of our time, who are not called Gnostics and
> the application of the passage seems to ring just as true.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > I see this entire verse as referring to the "Son of God,"
> > Jesus Christ: "We know most assuredly that the One who has
> > been born from (Gk. ex = out of or from) God does not sin;
> > but He who was born from God keeps himself, and the evil
> > one does not touch him."
> > ...
> > It is Jesus Christ who is the one without sin, who does
> > not sin and who keeps himself from the wicked one. They
> > are not of Christ; they are not under his protection;
> > they are not kept by him. But by inference Christians
> > are kept by him. John speaks confidently of those who
> > have the Son: "We know that we are from God ... And we
> > know that the Son of God has come and has given us an
> > understanding, that we may know him who is true; and we
> > are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This
> > is the true God and eternal life."
>
> What does it mean when you say, "we are in him"? Does that mean that we
> keep on living as we did when we were outside of him? That is the
> question, and then that question becomes, do we sin less and less as we
> grow, or do we just stop sinning and grow from that position of
> holiness? In my perspective, to stop sinning is not the end goal. That
> is the beginning. The end goal is to do the works that Christ did, and
> even greater works.
>
> With regards to the 1 John 5:18 passage, I do not see the necessity of
> insisting that Jesus Christ is THE ONE who is specifically meant by the
> word WHOSOEVER in this passage. It seems to me that other parts of the
> epistle clearly indicate that we as believers are born of God. Consider
> 1 John 5:1,
>
> Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every
> one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
> (1 John 5:1 KJV)
>
> Clearly, this verse 18 must be read in the context of this verse, which
> indicates that we too have power to become a son of God by believing
> upon Jesus Christ. Other verses in 1 John indicate this to be true for
> the believer who has the life of Christ within him. For example:
>
> And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1
> John 2:3 KJV)
>
> He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as
> he walked. (1 John 2:6 KJV)
>
> Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in
> him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. IN THIS THE CHILDREN
> OF GOD ARE MANIFEST, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not
> righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1
> John 3:9-10 KJV)
>
> Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of
> judgment: BECAUSE AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD. (1 John 4:17 KJV)
>
> Furthermore, your rendering of the 1 John 5:18 passage mangles the
> Greek. I know that you understand Greek, so please read the Greek text
> here. You have rendered "pas ho" as "the One," seemingly ignoring the
> word "pas" which means "all." The first part of verse 18 should read,
> "We know that everyone who has been born of God sins not," yet you
> translate it as, ""We know most assuredly that the One who has been born
> from (Gk. ex = out of or from) God does not sin." Surely you can see
> that you do not do properly handle the Greek phrase "pas ho." I would
> very much like to see you either justify your handling the Greek this
> way, or acknowledge your mistake. I'm not jabbing at you. I wish you
> could see my demeanor. I truly desire to see some serious consideration
> and explanation. We are just talking here, so let's not get our
> feathers ruffled. We are learning together.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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