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A professor of theology said of a colleague who had
just completed a commentary on the book of Matthew, "Does anyone here think that
this will be the last..(of its kind)? Language is a blunt instrument. BT
and DM are providing us with a commentary on 1 John. Each reads this
book on this issue differently. I'd be interested to hear the questions in the
minds and hearts of others on this site . They've both made an impressive case
for their respective understandings of Christian Perfection and I'm confident
that they could and, perhaps will, supplement their arguments. Long ago I
attended a Creation vs Evolution debate. At its conclusion we were asked to vote
on who won the debate not on who we believed was right. I found myself
giving the nod to the person with whom I disagreed. If any here do not possess
either the debate skills or the facility in Greek how then might they determine
not "who's winning" but what the Scriptures as a whole tell us. God knows, of
course. May we? I for one would appreciate comments & questions from
all participants. I firmly believe that the "heart of God" may be known on this
matter. Lance
Sent: April 09, 2004 22:40
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
David writes > Furthermore,
your rendering of the 1 John 5:18 passage mangles the Greek. I know that
you understand Greek, so please read the Greek text here. You have
rendered "pas ho" as "the One," seemingly ignoring the word "pas" which means
"all." The first part of verse 18 should read, "We know that everyone
who has been born of God sins not," yet you translate it as, ""We know most
assuredly that the One who has been born from (Gk. ex = out of or from) God
does not sin." Surely you can see that you do not do properly handle the
Greek phrase "pas ho." I would very much like to see you either justify
your handling the Greek this way, or acknowledge your mistake. I'm not
jabbing at you. I wish you could see my demeanor. I truly desire
to see some serious consideration and explanation. We are just talking
here, so let's not get our feathers ruffled. We are learning
together.
Actually, David, I did not render pas ho
as "the One"; instead I rendered ho gegennamenos as "the One who
has been born." The word ho is the definite article nominative
masculine singular; the word gegennamenos is a
participle. This particular participle is a perfect passive nominative
masculine singular. In order to carry the perfect passive across into English
I translated it as "has been born." The KJV fails to convey the perfect
passive in v.18a; instead it conveys a present active. In 18b the participle
gennatheis is an aorist passive nominative masculine singular. In
order to carry the aorist passive across into English I translated it as "was
born"; again the KJV fails to convey a proper aorist passive meaning; instead
it conveys a perfect passive. To get to the nominative masculine singular I
translated the first participle as "the One who" with the masculine emphasis
coming through in the rendering of the second participle as "He who."
Oidamen is a first person plural perfect
active indicative. It carries the idea of seeing or perceiving, which is
closely related to knowing or comprehending, and so I translated this
verb as "We know"; I could have equally accurately translated it as "We
perceive."
Pas is used here with an elative
significance, modifying oidamen and denoting the highest degree;
it should therefore be translated in a way which conveys the idea of all,
full, supreme, greatest, or most. In this
instance pas elevates the idea of
knowing to a status of certainty; hence "We know with all assurance" or
"We know full well" or "We know with great confidence" or "We know most
assuredly."
David, I hope this will be helpful. I'll leave
the rest of your comments to bear their own weight for the time being.
Thanks,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 10:16
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
> Bill wrote:
> > The question, as I see it, if we are to
understand this
> > verse, is this: Who is it that keeps you from
the wicked
> > one? Does this verse teach us that you keep yourself
from
> > the wicked one?
> > ...
> > We only get
into trouble with this passage when we assume
> > something about
ourselves that is only true of our Savior.
> > Jesus Christ is the
one who is without sin; he is the one
> > who has power over the
evil one; he is the one who keeps us.
> > We understand this and
know that it is true.
>
> We are agreed on this. He is the
one who keeps us. We have no power to
> live holy without the
Spirit of Christ living through us and doing it by
> the power of the
Holy Spirit. Not to agree with this would cause one to
> fall into
the error of Pelagianism.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > Did Peter
keep himself from the evil one? Was he
> > able to do that? No.
Peter needed to learn from
> > where his strength would
come.
>
> This is true, but I also want to point out that this
happened before
> Peter was baptized in the Holy Spirit. This does
not mean that someone
> immersed in the Holy Spirit is unable to do the
same sin, but I think
> that when one is baptized in the Holy Spirit, he
receives an inner power
> that helps him tremendously in these
situations.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > What is the Gnostic
connection to this passage,
> > verse 18 in particular? ...
Cerinthus, if indeed
> > it was Cerinthus, and his followers had
rejected
> > Christ. Hence they were not of God; they were of
> > the world (see cf. 4.3-5).
>
> I agree that
Cerinthus was of this world and not of God, but so were
> other Jews and
other false prophets. I'm not sure the Gnostic
> connection is all
that necessary to understand the passage. We could
> easily
consider those who reject Christ in our time, especially
> religious
false prophets of our time, who are not called Gnostics and
> the
application of the passage seems to ring just as true.
>
> Bill
wrote:
> > I see this entire verse as referring to the "Son of God,"
> > Jesus Christ: "We know most assuredly that the One who has
> > been born from (Gk. ex = out of or from) God does not sin;
> > but He who was born from God keeps himself, and the evil
> > one does not touch him."
> > ...
> > It is
Jesus Christ who is the one without sin, who does
> > not sin and
who keeps himself from the wicked one. They
> > are not of Christ;
they are not under his protection;
> > they are not kept by him. But
by inference Christians
> > are kept by him. John speaks confidently
of those who
> > have the Son: "We know that we are from God ... And
we
> > know that the Son of God has come and has given us an
> > understanding, that we may know him who is true; and we
>
> are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This
> > is
the true God and eternal life."
>
> What does it mean when you
say, "we are in him"? Does that mean that we
> keep on living as
we did when we were outside of him? That is the
> question, and
then that question becomes, do we sin less and less as we
> grow, or do
we just stop sinning and grow from that position of
> holiness? In
my perspective, to stop sinning is not the end goal. That
> is the
beginning. The end goal is to do the works that Christ did, and
>
even greater works.
>
> With regards to the 1 John 5:18 passage,
I do not see the necessity of
> insisting that Jesus Christ is THE ONE
who is specifically meant by the
> word WHOSOEVER in this passage.
It seems to me that other parts of the
> epistle clearly indicate that
we as believers are born of God. Consider
> 1 John 5:1,
>
> Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and
every
> one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten
of him.
> (1 John 5:1 KJV)
>
> Clearly, this verse 18 must
be read in the context of this verse, which
> indicates that we too have
power to become a son of God by believing
> upon Jesus Christ.
Other verses in 1 John indicate this to be true for
> the believer who
has the life of Christ within him. For example:
>
> And
hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1
>
John 2:3 KJV)
>
> He that saith he abideth in him ought himself
also so to walk, even as
> he walked. (1 John 2:6 KJV)
>
>
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth
in
> him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. IN THIS THE
CHILDREN
> OF GOD ARE MANIFEST, and the children of the devil: whosoever
doeth not
> righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his
brother. (1
> John 3:9-10 KJV)
>
> Herein is our love made
perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of
> judgment: BECAUSE AS
HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD. (1 John 4:17 KJV)
>
>
Furthermore, your rendering of the 1 John 5:18 passage mangles the
>
Greek. I know that you understand Greek, so please read the Greek
text
> here. You have rendered "pas ho" as "the One," seemingly
ignoring the
> word "pas" which means "all." The first part of
verse 18 should read,
> "We know that everyone who has been born of God
sins not," yet you
> translate it as, ""We know most assuredly that the
One who has been born
> from (Gk. ex = out of or from) God does not
sin." Surely you can see
> that you do not do properly handle the
Greek phrase "pas ho." I would
> very much like to see you either
justify your handling the Greek this
> way, or acknowledge your
mistake. I'm not jabbing at you. I wish you
> could see my
demeanor. I truly desire to see some serious consideration
> and
explanation. We are just talking here, so let's not get our
>
feathers ruffled. We are learning together.
>
> Peace be
with you.
> David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
>
----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt,
that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
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