Re: [TruthTalk] Read it and weep!

[Judith H Taylor]

John writes:
Who said anything about my sins and iniquities being different from others?   Certainly not me.   But now, with Christ as one who has clearly reconciled humanity with the divine,  our sins and iniquities are hidden in Him.   Do you deny this?????   

 

jt: Yes .. what does Jesus want with our sin and iniquity?  Also He is seated in the 3rd heaven at the RH of the Father and sin and iniquity are not allowed there.  There is no sin allowed in heaven, this is why we must deal with it here if we plan to go there. 

 

In Him, our sins are remembered NO MORE  (Jere 31:31-34.) 

 

jt: True, providing we release them, depart from them, and embrace His righteousness.

The Cross made our spiritual destiny a reality.   It expressed what God has always felt  --  a willingness to even die for His creation.   Kruger was discouraged with the way evangelicals used the Cross more as a negative/positive than as a blessing.  

 

jt: The cross was a shameful thing in that day; it is the resurrection power or dunamis released at the cross that is the blessing because when apprehended in our lives it frees us from the bondage of sin and releases us to serve the living God in the righteousness  proceeding from faith.

 

While I see his point and agree with his concern,   I do not see the Cross as an appeasement for the wrath of God.   I see it as God, with a broken heart, doing the impossible to accomplish what had proven to be the improbable   --   God, Himself, dying for a community of people who were never going to get it right apart from an unmeritorious favor from their Creator. 

 

jt: To begin with God is Spirit and Spirit can not die.  God did not die. Jesus was made a sacrifice in the flesh, IOW His physical body died and His Spirit went and preached to spirits in prison.

 

My sin problem -- in terms of destiny is over in Christ.    Apparently yours is not.  You believe that the Holy Spirit supercedes your will and, walla, there is no more sin.  What is the point in that teaching?   Eph 4 and Romans 7 stand as stark testimony against such a teaching.   

 

jt: No I don't believe that at all John and I don't understand why you, Jonathan, Lance et al. don't ask others what they believe rather than constantly presume that you know.  I don't believe God overrides the will of man ever and this includes all of the Godhead. 

Don't let your humor put you in a ditch. I suspect that most of the whole host of biblical comment you refer to is void of the "if's, and's and but's" (read conditions).

"Conditions," as I am now discovering, are sign posts along the Way.  In the beginning, I was a babe in Christ  --  knowing nothing and living a life without the full benefit of the abundance God has promised.  As time goes by,  we begin to respond to these "conditions."  I learned "belief," beginning in 1997 and that continues to this day.  But  I was "saved" in 1957.   I know more about the image of God than I did five months ago and now work to be like Him in terms of  my commitment to my fellow man.   In the beginning, I was fascinated with the Lord.   Today, I love Him and all that He is and wants to be in me.  Few saints meet these "conditions" in the same order or at the same time in their spiritual lives.  None are lost before the "condition" is fully "obeyed" or even mildly understood. 

jt: Where do you get the authority to define who is saved/unsaved?  I was under the impression that "all judgment" had been given to the Son and he will make the pronouncement at the end.  You could at least qualify by saying "I believe....I was saved etc..."  If you truly love Him you will be doing what He says and you and I will be in agreement.... well anyway this is how He defines loving Him.....

The blood is effective to cleanse the conscience ONLY when we go to the throne of grace in time of need.

You test the boundries of the heretical, Judy.    This is so wrong that I do not know how to respond.   The idea that the continual flow of the blood of the Lamb only works for us when we ask is so out of line with biblical teaching as to be scary. 

 

jt:  Oh it is so frustrating to be here without a concordance, I will never leave home without mine again.  My daughter has one but can't remember where it is.  Last time I was here I used hers.  Izzy help me!!  In Hebrews (I think) we are instructed to go to the throne of grace in time of need and the blood is to cleanse the conscience from dead works (much of which is religious).  The idea of a "continuel flow of blood" is Pentacostal and the theme of songs but I don't believe it is any more scriptural than trying to put blood coverings over unregenerate people and inanimate objects.  It's pure mythology. The purpose of the blood is the cleansing of the conscience before God.

 

Legalism?  Works salvation?   You bet.   As a babe in Christ, your eyes will be open in time, as well  and until that time, God will sustain you between those times of request.

 

jt: I don't know where I stand with regard to maturity John, but I'm hardly in fear of falling into the abyss if this is where you are coming from and  What would make you think my belief offers no hope for addictions?

Oh, maybe it is because of this vision:   I am the addict and you are the Saint and you tell me that after I receive Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit will infill me and I will stop sinning because of it  -  and if I do not cease my addiction, among other things, such will be a clear sign that I am ourside the grace of God.  

 

jt: Here we go again..... I've never said any of the above John, you are putting words in my mouth again. My belief is that just as Israel was instructed to go in and take the land when they crossed the Jordan. Killing their enemies.  We are to take our land back.  And just as God told Israel that he couldn't give it to them all at once because of the wild beasts and their inability to hold their ground.  He doesn't give all of our land back to us right away, we are to take it back gradually also one area at a time and this would include addictions and traditions.....  

No one is more the pathetic loser than the fully involved Addicted.   His only hope is the Continual Flow.  It may be years before his ability to obey will kick in, if ever in this lifetime.   And your only response to this statement is quote scriptures that speak of hell while I will continue to offer hope.  I have been called a false teacher for far less noble a teaching.

 

jt: I agree the addicted are pathetic but false doctrine will never make them free, even the false concept of a "continual flow"  Much better for them to learn sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and how to win the spiritual war for their lives which is what Pastor Henry is so successful with.   I'm the one who just spent a week in GA learning about "the more excellent way"  You may call it "the doctrine of perfectionism" John and I know you equate this with legalism.

I stayed home and read about that same Excellent Way.  And, I am developing some "new" strategies for my counseling ministry based, in part , on what I have learned while a member of this forum.   Got to get back out there with my fellow rif-raf.

 

jt: You read "about" it and I dealt with it.  Big difference.  I don't know how you counsel the people who come to you but if they are not in the process of being made free then you are wasting your time.   

However, God does say "Be ye holy or perfect as I am holy" we are to go on into maturity and dealing with sin is not an option.

No one on this forum denies this statement as it stands alone.   But to make it a requirement for a continued relationship with God, and you do this, is where I disagree.  

 

jt: You are the one making it a requirement.  I say that God gives us a measure of time to get it together when we are working with Him and moving in the right direction.  Our goal and the goal of the instruction is the image of Christ which is holiness and perfection.