Oh, yes I do think that pride,
selfishness, etc. are sins. Why would you assume I don’t. I
consider all 3 types of sin to be sin. So doesn’t that pretty much
cover it? I do not dismiss Romans 3:23, or any other scripture. I am
telling you to consider all scripture together, in context. MY Bible does not
say “and keep on falling short of the glory…” Which
translation do you have? The “sin reality” theory, which is
actually sin unreality? J Izzy
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004
9:46 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Read it
and weep!
Izzy: I am going to take a wild guess and say that,
apparently, you have not seriously read and considered my post.
There are three -- at least three -- differing considerations for
"sin." Two of which are discussed below. As one of
the devoted proof-texters on this forum, you have thought to counter my post by
sinply quoting scripture that applies to one of the three venues and, then,
signing your name. You in no way dealt with what I actually
said. Apparently you do not think selfishness or pride or
conceit are sins. Apparently you do not thinkthe present time statement
"and fall (and are falling) short of the glory of God" has any
meaning at all in our discussion. Apparently you believe that
Romans 6:1 is the perfect counter to I Jo 1:8.
You dismiss what Romans 3:23 says in preference for an opinion that is set in
stone.
I gave you an effective and accurate translation of the passage. It
has to considerations when it comes to verb tense -- past and
present. "All HAVE sinned ...." is the first
-- one you agree with to the exclusion of any other consideration.
"and fall short of the glory ......." is the second and accurately
translated "and keep on falling short of the glory ..."
That is the translation. You CANNOT disagree with that
!!! That is not my opinion or commentary.
"Falling short of the glory .." paints a much larger
picture than simply "continuing to sin" but contextually, the sin
issue is included. How do we know this? Because it a final
phrase in a structure of thought that is centered in the "sin
reality."
John
In a message dated 10/2/2004 2:34:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And one more thing
-- sin is no longer the deciding factor in our relationship with
Christ. Romans 3:23 is constantly ignored on this forum by several who
want to make personal and individual righteousness the issue that determines
our saving relationship (is there another kind) with the Lord. You
know what it says but I will remind you: All have sinned and fall short
(present tense action -- "are falling short even as we speak")
of the glory of God. There are three venues in which sin works its ugly
will, two of which are pertinent to this discussion: historical sin
and sins of character. Smoking, drinking, cursing, doping, etc are sins
commited in time -- they are historical, having a beginning and an
ending. Sins of character are very different. They are with
us all the time and form the basis for those things we commit (the historical
sin). Pride, conceit, bigotry, anger, selfishness, and the life and
so we sin and continually fall short of the glory of God.
This is why John can say that we "have sin" at any time (I Jo
1:8.) We are no better than those whom we dispise. It is Christ who
makes us right. It is His faith and victory that saves and this never changes. We always need Him and
are always lost without Him.
John
John,
You misconstrue Romans
3:23 if you think it reads, “For all have sinned and keep on sinning every
day.” Yes, we all have sinned, requiring a Savior. What does the
Savior do? He saves us from sin. Does that mean we keep on sinning? No.
“God forbid,” as Paul said. Jesus has set us free from sinful
behavior/acts/addictions/desires, if we only exercise the faith God freely
offers to walk it. The FAITH you speak of is the faith in the overcoming power
of Christ in our lives against committed sins AND committing sins! If we keep committing
sins that is a sign that we are not as “in Christ” as we assumed we
were.
You also say “we are
no better than those whom we despise.” What scripture is that???
The righteous (and the Lord) despise evil. We were, prior to Christ, all
evil. But in Him we are the righteousness of God. Not just theoretically,
or mentally, or out there in some ethereal netherland—but in
actuality. We DO righteousness because the indwelling Holy Spirit
empowers us to desire and walk in what GOD considers righteousness.
I believe the faulty kind
of thinking you express is what makes some people seek out and cling to false
doctrine such as Kruger teaches; that we are made right in Christ even if we
continue in our sinful lifestyles, and that we should expect to continue
sinning every day, and in fact God “understands” our sin, because we
all are in just one big group hug love-in relationship. The truth is that God
does not ever “understand” sin. Sin is what He died on the
cross to overcome. He finds it that abhorrent. Scripture that is read in
context and unfiltered tells us that sin separates us from God. Christ is
the cure for our sin (meaning sinful living), and the shield from its penalty
in eternity. If God understands sin, if sin does not separate us from God, and
if there is any way to “spiritualize” sin, then we never needed a Savior.
Psalm 11
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth
violence his soul hateth.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of
God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is
in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in
his blood, to declare his righteousness for
the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall
we continue in sin, that
grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer
therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus
Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like
as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness
of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man
is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth
we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Izzy
