Re: [TruthTalk] Read it and weep!

[Knpraise]

Izzy:  I am going to take a wild guess and say that, apparently, you have not seriously read and considered my post.   There are three --  at least three -- differing considerations for "sin."   Two of which are discussed below.  As one of the devoted proof-texters on this forum, you have thought to counter my post by sinply quoting scripture that applies to one of the three venues and, then, signing your name.  You in no way dealt with what I actually said.   Apparently you do not think  selfishness or pride or conceit are sins.   Apparently you do not thinkthe present time statement "and fall (and are falling) short of the glory of God" has any meaning at all in our discussion.   Apparently you believe that Romans 6:1 is the perfect counter to I Jo 1:8.  

You dismiss what Romans 3:23 says in preference for an opinion that is set in stone.  
I gave you an effective and accurate translation of the passage.   It has to considerations when it comes to verb tense  -- past and present.   "All HAVE sinned ...."  is the first  -- one you agree with to the exclusion of any other consideration.  "and fall short of the glory ......." is the second and accurately translated "and keep on falling short of the glory ..."   That is the translation.   You CANNOT disagree with that !!!   That is not my opinion or commentary.    "Falling short of the glory  .."  paints a much larger picture than simply "continuing to sin" but contextually, the sin issue is included.   How do we know this?  Because it a final phrase in a structure of thought that is centered in the "sin reality." 

John



In a message dated 10/2/2004 2:34:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

And one more thing  --  sin is no longer the deciding factor in our relationship with Christ.  Romans 3:23 is constantly ignored on this forum by several who want to make personal and individual righteousness the issue that determines our saving relationship (is there another kind) with the Lord.   You know what it says but I will remind you: All have sinned and fall short (present tense action --  "are falling short even as we speak") of the glory of God.  There are three venues in which sin works its ugly will, two of which are pertinent to this discussion:   historical sin and sins of character.  Smoking, drinking, cursing, doping, etc are sins commited in time  --  they are historical, having a beginning and an ending.   Sins of character are very different.  They are with us all the time and form the basis for those things we commit (the historical sin).  Pride, conceit, bigotry, anger, selfishness, and the life  and so we sin and continually fall short of the glory of God.  

This is why John can say that we "have sin" at any time  (I Jo 1:8.)  We are no better than those whom we dispise.  It is Christ who makes us right.   It is His faith and victory that saves and this never changes.   We always need Him and are always lost without Him. 
John

John,

You misconstrue Romans 3:23 if you think it reads, âFor all have sinned and keep on sinning every day.â Yes, we all have sinned, requiring a Savior.  What does the Savior do? He saves us from sin. Does that mean we keep on sinning? No.  âGod forbid,â as Paul said.  Jesus has set us free from sinful behavior/acts/addictions/desires, if we only exercise the faith God freely offers to walk it. The FAITH you speak of is the faith in the overcoming power of Christ in our lives against committed sins AND committing sins! If we keep committing sins that is a sign that we are not as âin Christâ as we assumed we were.

You also say âwe are no better than those whom we despise.â  What scripture is that??? The righteous (and the Lord) despise evil. We were, prior to Christ, all evil.  But in Him we are the righteousness of God.  Not just theoretically, or mentally, or out there in some ethereal netherlandâbut in actuality.  We DO righteousness because the indwelling Holy Spirit empowers us to desire and walk in what GOD considers righteousness.

I believe the faulty kind of thinking you express is what makes some people seek out and cling to false doctrine such as Kruger teaches; that we are made right in Christ even if we continue in our sinful lifestyles, and that we should expect to continue sinning every day, and in fact God âunderstandsâ our sin, because we all are in just one big group hug love-in relationship. The truth is that God does not ever âunderstandâ sin.  Sin is what He died on the cross to overcome.  He finds it that abhorrent. Scripture that is read in context and unfiltered tells us that sin separates us from God.  Christ is the cure for our sin (meaning sinful living), and the shield from its penalty in eternity. If God understands sin, if sin does not separate us from God, and if there is any way to âspiritualizeâ sin, then we never needed a Savior.

Psalm 11
5   The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24   Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25   Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 6
1   What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2   God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3   Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4   Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5   For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6   Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7   For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Izzy