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----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 5:56
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Eternal
Judgment
Bill Taylor wrote:
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Wednesday, March 23, 2005 6:54 PM
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Eternal Judgment
Bill Taylor wrote:
Terry writes > I do not understand you very
well, so I have no idea as to whether this will sink in, ...
Hi Terry. I'm sorry you have such
difficulty understanding me. I try to be a good communicator, but
obviously fall short of that task. My question was this: Why do you see
reconciliation and forgiveness as something which is "offered" to
humanity, but is not a reality until individual humans do something
(repentance, evidently) to activate it?
Col 1.19-20 -- For it pleased
the Father that in [his Son, Jesus Christ,] all the fullness should
dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him,
whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through
the blood of His cross.
Col 2.13-14 -- And you, being
dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has
made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all
trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that
was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the
way, having nailed it to the cross.
As I understand it, both
reconciliation and the forgiveness of sins were made a reality for all
humanity by Christ Jesus at the cross. They are already fully
accomplished, made actual and true in him. It is therefore not our
repentance that makes these things real. What repentance does is
align our thinking and actions with that which is already real and true
in Christ. Repentance is thus first of all a change of mind, as we let
go of false beliefs and begin to believe the word of truth, the good
news of our salvation; it is secondly a change of behavior, as our newly
established belief in Christ Jesus, who is now Christ in us through
the Holy Spirit, begins to produce fruit in our lives.
Anyway, thanks for your response.
I will try to do a better job of communication in the future.
Bill
=====================================================
John, the
Baptist said repent. Jesus said repent. Peter said
repent. It seems like a whole bunch of people then and now, say
repent. If there is nothing you need to do, if Christ has done it
all, if you have no say as to whether you are saved or lost then everyone
is saved. Otherwise, Christ is to blame for those who go to Hell. We
both know better than that, so your logic escapes me.
Terry
_____________________________________________________________________
Perhaps someday, through the renewal of your
mind in Christ, it will begin to make sense :>) Until then, my
friend, you will still be my brother.
The problem I have with your theology and the
thing which drove me to search the Scriptures for greater answers, can be
demonstrated in the egocentrism of your following
statements: "He died to make [my salvation] possible and I took advantage of that
possibility. I turned from my sin, to Christ." I say this not to
offend you but to point out that humanity has but one Savior, Christ Jesus
our Lord. Your theology espouses a subtle but nonetheless fallacious form
of co-redemption; by that I mean your gospel has at its
center two Saviors: Jesus and yourself; for had you not
taken advantage of the possibility of salvation offered you, and
had you not turned from your sin, you would not
have been saved. Am I correct? My friend, that makes you your own
savior, along with him who died to make your salvation a contingent
possibility. Do you not know in your heart that this is wrong?
It seems to me if the chain which binds you to the
Father in Jesus Christ has as even one of it links your feeble act
of "repentance" or whatever else it may be, then the entire chain --
your whole salvation -- is no stronger than you, its weakest
link. What weight must pull across your shoulders! When I believed as
you do, that weight tore me in two; it took me straight to
despair. There were, however, many Christians, whom I
knew, who thought they were strong enough to tow the load. I
could tell, though, that they were actually rather stuffy. And to be
honest, most of them are still patting themselves on the back for their
autonomous acts of personal repentance and decision. They still
think they are plenty strong. The
truth is, Terry, I believe they are saved; I also believe you are
saved -- all this I believe by the same grace that saved me.
Anyway, I do not expect to
change your mind and I am sure you are tired of my nagging questions, so I
will let it go at that.
Peace to you, my brother,
Bill
========================================================
Mam oh man,
how I wish you could see it. This is not two saviors. This is God making
a covenant with man. If you will do this, I will do that. The
stronger party always sets the terms of the covenant. He set the
terms. I simply agreed to them. I have no reason to pat myself on
the back. He died for me. I did nothing for Him. I simply
accepted salvation on His terms. "Repent and die to self. Follow
me". I have died to self. My mind has been renewed. I know
the truth, because He told me the truth.
I wish there was some way that I
could get the whole world to see that.
Your brother,
Terry
_________________________________________________________________________
The great thing (and I know this may be a strain
for you) is that God finds a way to reach us through our muddled
theologies. I see this happening all around me -- even here on TT
:>) I have no doubt that what you describe above is exactly how you
see it; I am also very confident that you are doing the very best you can to
understand "truth" and live faithfully to it. I too am attempting to do the
same, and I want to (and believe I do) do that with the same passionate
commitment to our Lord as you. The truth is, however, that we pick up on
things differently; we also priororitize and internalize our
thoughts in different ways. I know very well that part of your "task" is to
not only accept, but believe and internalize every word of Scripture. Mine is
the same, yet we obviously have different ways of doing that, and those
"ways" bring us to different conclusions. In other words, we each operate
with a different set of regulative beliefs, through which we interpret
and order every thought that enters our minds. This is just a given; there is
no getting around it. I am so willing to give you the benefit of all my
doubts. I hope that you are willing to do the same for me. My prayer is
that through continued dialogue, in meekness, we may all grow closer together,
not only in terms of our theological beliefs, but in our personal
relationships as well.
Peace to you,
Bill
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