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----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 22, 2005 11:16
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
May I respond? First, two cautions:
a) The wideness of God's mercy is a different
question. God's mercy can be infinitely wide even though the gap between
sketches that still qualify as the same Jesus cannot be. The effect of
God's mercy is to reconcile people to himself (who may or may not have a true
idea of Jesus), not to make all Jesuses the same.
b) It's a bit confusing to me to use the name Jesus
(or Christ) in predicating the eternal Sonship. Having missed what went
before, may I ask whether this might also be confusing to Judy? You
can't get rid of the humanity of Jesus. Although Jesus the God-man has no
end, and there is NOW no Son apart from him, he did have a beginning. Therefore
it's possible for two people to believe the same things about Jesus while
believing different things about before Jesus was conceived.
As to those essentials whose absence results in a
different Jesus (since the conversation seems to aim at establishing
this): I'm not certain, but I believe divinity must be one. If he is only
Saviour without being God, then (among other consequences) salvation is reduced
to fire insurance. The point of salvation is worship. Jesus is to be
worshipped. If he is denied worship, the point of the story is denied, and it is
a different story. Second, I believe his real and
Jewish humanity is essential, since it is as our rep, and more specifically as
the rep of Israel, that he has effected our reconciliation. A
third essential is that he really died, was really raised, and really
ascended--without that, the whole story falls apart too. If Judy worships Jesus
as God, and believes that he is also a man, of the Jewish people, and that
he died, rose, and ascended to effect our salvation, then I believe she has
the same Jesus. Does she have the same God? If she thinks the beginning of Jesus
was the beginning of the Son, then no.
You could follow each of these out to other
things--for example, could Jesus be the chosen rep of Israel, the Christ, if he
was from the tribe of Benjamin and not Judah? Well, I know my answer would be
No, but I recognize that this is one level
removed.
Do you agree? I could, as always, be all
wet.
D
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 6:10
AM
Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] Belief
----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 22, 2005 06:09
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
As Rush often says to his callers (in a very
patronising manner which I don't intend herein) 'you've swerved into something
that is utterly profound.' Speaking only for myself Judy, I believe that the
answer to your question is 'YES AND IT IS NO'. As to our Mormon participants,
I believe the answer is more likely to be an unequivocal 'YES'. How wide is
'THE WIDENESS OF GOD'S MERCY?' IFF, from God's perspective, Judy Taylor and
David Miller, have misunderstood the matter of the 'eternal sonshiip' of the
second Person of the Trinity and, IFF, when it arises in conversation, they
teach it.........well.....shall we go on?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: June 22, 2005 05:53
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Lance, in view of our discussion yesterday - would
you say that you and I believe in a different Jesus?
Still waiting ... judyt
Please Dave, read Perry's post of yesterday
then, answer my question. Would you say, in lieu of Perry's 'list' that we
(you and I) believe in a different Jesus? IMO Perry is quite correct in
those distinctions he points out.
DAVEH: No, I do not
recall saying that. However, I believe we all are viewing the same
Jesus, but have different perspectives on what we see. The Jesus I
believe in the same one found in the Bible which is the same one you
believe as you read about him in the Bible. That does not mean we
both view him the same way. Does that make sense,
Lance?
Lance Muir wrote:
Have you said that their's is a
'different' Jesus?
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
June 21, 2005 00:55
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
DAVEH: Logically, the onus is not upon me
to define the Jesus I believe in, but rather it is on the person who
suggests I don't believe in Jesus. FTR....I have not said that
the Jesus Kevin, you Perry or any other TTer believes in is a false
Jesus.
Lance Muir wrote:
DaveH says "Kevin, I believe in
Jesus." IFF we are going to engage in a conversation that entails
reality, then we have to continue to build upon that which has
been said previously.According to you THE JESUS TO BE
BELIEVED IN IS MOST FULLY AND ACCURATELY DESCRIBED WITHIN MORMON
TEACHING. Is this so? The Jesus believed in by Kevin, Perry,
Lance et al is a false Jesus. Is this not also so? (unwieldy but,
you get my point)What, IYO, are the eternal consequenses for
non-Mormons?
Mr. Moderator:Please grant DaveH the
opportunity of fully answering and, explaining.
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
June 19, 2005 23:02
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
DAVEH: FTR Kevin, I believe in
Jesus. Therefore can we conclude that you've made
the judgment rather than God?
Kevin Deegan wrote:
He
will!
He Has!
JN 3:18 He that believeth on
him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned
already
DAVEH:
I fully understand that, Perry. But I'd feel more
comfortable
letting God make that judgment than
you.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>
David,
>
> Romans 10:9,10 : That if thou shalt
confess with thy mouth the Lord
> Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
> the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart
man believeth unto
> righteousness; and with the
mouth confession is made unto salvation.
>
>
But, as I have stated before, the right jesus and right god
must be
> at the center of one's faith. I am not just
harassing you, Dave, I
> honestly do believe that the
mormons worship false gods.
>
>
Perry
>
>> From: Dave Hansen
>> Reply-To: [email protected]
>>
To: [email protected]
>>
Subject: [TruthTalk] Belief
>> Date: Sun, 19 Jun
2005 00:16:42 -0700
>>
>> DAVEH:
Yeah........Pretty quiet on TT
tonight..
>>
>> Do you believe that those
who believe in Jesus are saved, as I've
>> heard
many Christians proclaim? If belief is inadequate, what else
>> is needed, Perry?
>>
>>
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>>
>>> Dave,
this is great. Midnight, just me and you on TT, mano y mano,
>>> so to speak
:-)
>>>
>>> I guess I am biased in
that way, because both you and Blaine admit
>>>
to following the christ and jesus of mormonism, so it is my
opinion
>>> that you are lost since I believe
that they are false gods. If I
>>> thought that
you guys were saved in spite of the teachings of the
>>> mormon church I would not be spending so
much time exposing the
>>> false nature of the
mormon church to you.
>>>
>>> But,
the bottom line is that God makes that ultimate decision,
not I.
>>>
>>>
Perry
>>>
>>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
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STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
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