----- Original Message -----
Sent: July 21, 2005 09:38
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14
If Bill is not up to this yet - then I'll submit it
for - whoever just may be interested.....
jt: It is right there in
Genesis 2:17. God is the one who told Adam that in the day he ate from
the wrong tree - he would SURELY DIE. Are you saying He lied and that
Adam didn't die that day? I know I have asked you this before and you
have ignored the question.
Bill: No, Judy, Adam did not die that day, and God
did not lie that day either; rather he clothed Adam in the promise of the
Seed. It was he, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, who "died"
metaphorically that day, in that the sentence of death was now upon him, he
being the New Adam, the Representative of the old. Now,
the point is, Judy, that you can disagree with me if you like, but you cannot
point to Scripture and say, "Here it says, 'upon that day Adam died
spiritually.' It is not there. What you are dealing with is conjecture,
nothing else. This in itself is not wrong, as long as you realize that that is
what you are doing. But conjecture is not definitive in the way that explicit
language is definitive. Your position is not
clearly articulated; yours is a belief, just like mine is a belief. Yours just
happens to find its source in Augustine. I am fine with that: why aren't you?
Bill
jt: Not only am I "not fine with this" I
am horrified!. I have done a little homework re Father Augustine since
yesterday and now understand why we are in such a mess here - No
wonder we all speak a different language since he is the fount of truth
for some of us. Obviously professing Christian believers on TT do not have the
same frame of reference any more with one another than with the Mormon boys
and we never will until we decide to gather around God's Word and become
Berean. The adversary has used the writings of these men to
divide and conquer for centuries. When will we wake up and smell the
coffee?
I have learned that Augustine is a most revered
saint in the RCC and a doctor of the Church. His ideas permeate the
Latin Vulgate and both Calvin and Luther (as priests) were trained in his
doctrine. The worst of Calvinism can be found rooted in him.
Augustine said "I should not believe the gospel unless I were moved to do so
by the authority of the CC (now RCC) and he is one of the first to place the
authority of tradition on a level with the Bible. He incorporated
philosophy (Platonism) into his teaching and blatant heresies in his writings
include:
- Infant baptism for regeneration
- Purgatory
- Salvation possible only in Church and through the sacraments (Baptism,
Confirmation, Mass, Last Rites)
- Persecution of those who reject RCC dogma (beginning with the
Donatists)
The Latin Vulgate is permeated with Augustinian ideas
on predestination, rejection of free will, penance rather than repentance, the
word mystery is translated sacrament and presbyter is translated
priest. Some of it even carried over to the
KJV from the Geneva Bible which is filled with Calvinism and Acts 13:48 became
"unconditional election" and Acts 2:47 "irresistable grace"
So is it any wonder that we can no longer endure
sound doctrine???
Anyone care to know what the scriptures teach about
spiritual death?
