Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

[Judy Taylor]

 

 

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:20:51 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

First of all, Judy does not argue for the inheritance of a sinful nature but for an inheritance of sin. 

 

Jt: Wrong JD, as I've noted in the past you either don't listen or if you do you don't comprehend because your doctrine has you blindsided. What Judy argues for is a changed nature.  A&E went from being innocent and holy, the image of their heavenly father to the image of a father who was earthly, sensual, and devilish and the change began when spiritual death entered that very day.

 

Secondly,  Adam's nature did not change with the eating of the fruit or he could not have sinned to begin with.  Choice does not exist apart from the ability to make the wrong choice. 

 

jt: Adam knew God had forbidden eating from that particular tree. He was NOT deceived so for him it was wilfull sin. So our inheritance in the first Adam is a fallen nature along with a heart that wilfully sins against God.

 

He was created with the propensity for falling away.  It was not the tree "of good and evil" but the tree "of the knowledge of good and evil."    Big difference.   Why did they  (A & E) hide in the bushes after the sin?  Guilt !!   They had received the knowing of their sin. 

 

jt: What is the "big difference" JD since you appear to know about these things.  When God said not to eat from it

was He just holding out on them/us because it's really good?

 

It is through Law that we come to know sin  (Ro 7:7).   Just as assuredly as covetousness existed before the law, so does sin  --   but it cannot be so identified apart from law.   There is no accountability apart from law.

 

jt: Death reigned from Adam to Moses before there was any law.  How can you deny accountability. People were

dying weren't they?  God destroyed all but 8 people because of sin.  I call judgment - holding them accountable.

 

Since no one on this forum believes in universalism, I can say without fear of contradiction that  Christ's benefit is not realized apart from our partnership.  Neither is Adam's benefit realized apart from our partnership.   Ro 5:12 is a predictive certainty !!   WE DIE BECAUSE WE  ALL HAVE SINNED.  

 

jt: Without the cross we would die anyway - whether or not we had personally sinned - but we would have because

it is just doing what comes naturally and it is natural for sinners to sin.

 

And this is not the first time Paul has made this point in this letter  .....    "....... all have sinned and continue to fall short of His glory .."  (Ro 2:23). 

 

jt: Why JD are you trying to make all scripture conform to your idea of the book of Romans rather than ask God to help you to understand Romans in light of the rest of scripture?

 

When you argue for "sinful nature" in 5:12, you change the very wording of the passage.  You have taken  mankind's failure out of the equation and inserted  his potential for failure.  Verse 12 is not saying that we die because we share the same potential for sin.   Rather, with predictive certainty, Paul declares that we die because we have all have done the very same thing  --  we have sinned.  

 

jt: No God said that in Genesis when He cursed the man and woman along with the creation.  We are procreated JD.

We don't just pop out of an isolated egg in a vacuum.

 

Adam was not an eternal being before sin and mortal afterwards!!    If that were so, there would have been no need for the Tree of Life.   Man needs a life source !!  

 

jt: Adam would have been eternal had he stuck with the right tree.  Death entered his being when he made the wrong choice and disobeyed God.  He was being tested - just as we are tested constantly.

 

He was created this way and remains so. The Garden was never the goal of man's creation or God would have preserved the Garden or promised its return.  Man was not just driven from the Garden,  he was excluded from the Tree of Life.  In fact, it is not because of sin that he was driven from the Garden.   It was because of the concern of God that man continue to live  (forever) after receiving the knowing of good and evil.  The guarding angel did not prevent entry into the Garden, rather he prevented access to the Tree of Life. 

 

jt: Are you saying that A&E could have gone back into the garden after they were expelled JD?  The tree of Life represents eternal life and the other tree represents eternal death.  It's just best not to know some things if you are not God.  

 

Christ is our life.   THAT has been the plan from the very beginning.  

 

jt: Yeah! Well Christ IS the tree of Life and He has been there from the beginning. 

 

Creation is not a completed reality apart from the inclusion of Jesus.   Christ is not the solution to a problem so much as He is the conclusion of the work of creation.   Just as creation on one day was continued into the workings of another day, so the creation of man is fulfilled in another time  -   with Jesus.  In Christ, it is not that we live again but that we never die.  

 

jt: He is the CREATOR JD, so how do you figure the above.  You sure make things complicated?

 

If we disagree concerning the story of beginnings,  we will not understand Paul's theological inclusion of Adam in the same light.  Adam was the door.  Sin passed through that door onto all of mankind because all of mankind stood on common ground with Adam  --  all sinned.   There is none who can declare righteousness AND  --  we have none to blame but ourselves.    Not Adam.  Not the serpent.  Only ourselves. Death passed onto me because I sinned.   JD 

 

You were born into this world a sinner JD - and what else does one expect from a sinner - the fruit of his life is sin...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:37:47 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

Judy wrote:
>> We are all fallen because Adam fell and this is why
>> death reigned and why we are so in need of a
>> daysman redeemer.

John wrote:
> You continue to ignore Ro 5:12 which plainly
> contradicts your theory.  Why?

Romans 5:12 does not contradict her.  It says:

Romans 5:12
(12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; 
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

He plainly says that sin entered this world by one man, Adam.  When he says, 
"for that all have sinned," he is giving evidence for how we know that sin 
is inherited from Adam.  The fact that everyone sins is very strong evidence 
that we have all inherited a nature bent on sinning.

Read four verses later, and you see how he says, "For if by one man's 
offence death reigned by one..."  This indicates death being something we 
inherited from Adam.

Romans 5:17
(17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which 
receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in 
life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Two verses later, he says again, "by one man's disobedience many were made 
sinners..."

Romans 5:19
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the 
obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Therefore, we inherited both death and sin from the first man Adam.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how 
you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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