Debbie wrote:
> Yes, it really was like being approached by an
> invisible someone who knocked me over with
> a wave of love.
Yes, I understand that he once was not there as he now was, but in what way
did you finally perceive him? Was it external, as by one of the five senses
of your physical body (touch, smell, taste, hearing, sight), or was it
internal, in your heart?
Debbie wrote:
> If anything, the candle/lamp/whatever seems
> to be showing God the person, not the other
> way around.
Yes...
Debbie wrote:
> ... I'm just saying the verse does not argue unambiguously
> that we can arrive at the truth without revelation.
Oh, I think it does take revelation. Perhaps you have been misunderstanding
me. In talking about the conscience, and also about the spirit in which the
conscience exists, I am only mentioning a doorway through which all this
operates. I view the conscience like a candle, that has been lit all along.
Revelation is like a shining light, but is in agreement with the candle.
Debbie wrote:
> I think it's interesting that the word candle is used (or
> lamp in some translations), not the light or flame itself.
> Maybe the candle or lamp does show the person who
> she really is in the sight of God, but is something that
> gets lit by the Lord--i.e., there is nothing shining until
> he lights it. Hm?
That's not how I read the evidence nor the Scriptures, but I agree that the
light becomes much brighter after he has revealed himself to us.
Debbie wrote:
> John 7:38 is given explicit interpretation by the apostle
> in the very next verse. Rivers of living water flowing from
> within refers to the believer being indwelt by the Holy Spirit
> (a state of affairs, moreover, that was still anticipated, since
> the Spirit had not yet been given); no problem for me.
You mentioned how you had problems with the rest of the verse (Prov. 20:27).
I thought you were talking about the "searching all the inward parts of the
belly" aspect. You seemed to think this was contrary to something I was
saying? We are having some major disconnects in communicating here. I
think you think I am saying something that I'm not saying.
Debbie wrote:
> Does this verse teach that rivers of living water (equivalent
> to understanding of the truth, since that's what's in question
> in this discussion) are inherent within every human, before
> an encounter with Christ? No.
I do not think understanding of the truth is the "equivalent" of rivers of
living water. Neither do I think such is inherent within every human.
Another analogy concerned a well of water springing up into life
everlasting. This is somewhat different than rivers of living water. We
start with a candle, but we eventually get great light. That's my
perception.
Debbie wrote:
> As for I Cor. 2:10-11, it too supports what I am saying!
> It talks about things (v 9) which have not entered our
> hearts ("things beyond the mind of man" in the translation
> I am reading) until the Spirit has revealed them to us.
> We can know our own spirit, according to this passage,
> but none of us knows the thoughts of God--only the Spirit
> of God does, hence he has to reveal them to us. Isn't this
> what I've been saying?
I'm not disagreeing with you. I am trying to augment your understanding.
The 1 Cor. passage speaks of the spirit of man which "knows" and how the
Spirit of God reveals, searching all things, the deep things of God (compare
Prov. 20:27, 'searching all the inward parts of the belly.').
Debbie wrote:
> About conscience: the conscience of devout Hindus I have
> met tells them they ought to have sacrificed to Hanuman that
> morning. The conscience of some Muslims tells them they
> ought to give their lives to blow up infidels. What did Paul's
> conscience prompt him to do before he met Christ on the
> road to Damascus?
The voice of the conscience is distorted in these cases. The conscience
affirms the need to sacrifice to God, but people who hold this truth in
unrighteousness will sacrifice to false gods and even offer human
sacrifices. The conscience affirms the need to deny self and to give one's
life for the good of others, but those who hold the truth in unrighteousness
blow themselves up to kill the infidels. Paul's conscience surely affirmed
his need to zealously do God's work, but holding that truth in
unrighteousness, he persecuted Christians, not because of what his
conscience told him, but because of his ignorance.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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