> [Original Message]
> From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Date: 11/29/2005 2:45:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil
man' says Dean Moore
>
> Dean, I have been spending too much time on e-mail and must back off. I
> just want to make a few comments.
>
> I am not a fan of Calvin. Please try to remember that. In the matter of
> Calvin and Servetus, I am on the side of Servetus in the sense that I do
not
> support "thought police." In other words, I do not support the Council
of
> Geneva putting Servetus to death. The difficulty I have about being
> completely on the side of Servetus is that Servetus himself tried to get
the
> same council that convicted him to convict and kill Calvin, and to have
all
> of Calvin's possessions given to him as compensation for all the trouble
> Calvin caused him. So I really can't be on either guy's side if all the
> truth fully be known.
cd: Then maybe we found a middle ground as I don't think much of either one
myself. Maybe we should stop trying to present them as having good in them
and focus on which is the meanest:-)
>
> In regards to Arminius, you are confusing "Calvinism" with "Calvin."
> Arminius considered John Calvin a brother in Christ and greatly supported
> his writings. What he was against was the Calvinists who were twisting
> Calvin's writings to their own purpose. I recommend you read the Works
of
> Jacobus Arminius. It is available for free. If you download the pdf
> versions, search for Calvin's name, and see how often Arminius quotes him
> and relies upon the writings of Calvin to defend himself against his
> Calvinistic opponents. In regards to the Creeds, you will see (if my
memory
> serves me correctly), that he fully supported the Westminster Confession.
> This Creed was the "biggie." The other creeds you mentioned are not that
> relevant in regards to John Calvin. There is a lot of politics involved
> here that is sometimes difficult to follow.
cd: I think I have already downloaded Arminius-I find him to be fasinating
and hope to study more of his works.
>
> You should also know that while the modern Calvinists put the order of
our
> salvation as regeneration / faith / justification, Calvin himself appears
to
> me and many others to have it faith / regeneration / justification.
> Therefore, while you might be disagreeing with Calvinists about this
issue
> of regeneration, you are probably in agreement with John Calvin himself.
> Calvin can be read about on this in Book 3, Chapter 11 of his Institutes.
cd: Actually Faith/Justification (pardoned)/regenaration makes more sense
to me. So I have no agreement with J. Calvin.
>
> In regards to your comment about Calvin's will. I'm not sure you are
> interpreting his quote right. When Calvin speaks of his exhortation, he
is
> simply accepting responsibility... "yes, I exhorted the council to do
> something about this man." Part of the law was that the accuser had to
go
> to prison too in case the accusations were false. It was Calvin's
personal
> secretary who played this role of accuser and went to prison. I have no
> doubt of Calvin's culpability in the matter. The problem is when we
> characterize it as Calvin murdering Servetus. That's not what happened.
> Calvin exhorted the authorities to do something about this man in their
> city. The city took it from there, judging and executing Servetus.
cd: You know my view on that already.
>
> If you read Calvin's writings, he was not at all happy with how Geneva
was
> progressing. He despised the lack of liberty, and was himself
> excommunicated from the city for 3 years with his buddy Farel who Judy
had
> quoted. There is no doubt that the Geneva "experiment" was a failure,
but
> to lay it all at Calvin's feet is not right because it is not accurate.
> People talk like Calvin was the mayor, or the pope, or some great
official.
> He was not even a citizen. He was a lawyer and preacher in town. His
power
> was to excommunication only, and the city even did not allow him to
exercise
> that the way he wanted.
cd: I maintain:To make decrees shows power David.
>
> You mentioned John Wesley and say that faith must be present for
> regeneration. Yet, surely you are aware that John Wesley believed in and
> practiced infant baptism. How does an infant have faith? Wesley
believed
> in baptismal regeneration and practiced it. When John Wesley wrote what
you
> quoted, he was talking about what happens when an adult believes and
enters
> baptism and is only addressing a particular situation, not his
perspective
> overall of regeneration / faith / justification. He does not even use
the
> word regeneration there.
cd: For me child baptism is a way of bringing children with unholy parents
into the church-later they can decide on faith as wisdom comes. Job also
offered sacrifices up to God for his children. 1 Cor.7:14, Acts 2:39,
>
> You mentioned that you had a goal of clearly defining the difference
between
> Calvin and Arminius. Perhaps what you really should do is contrast
> Calvinism and Arminianism. I am not resisting your efforts, but only
trying
> to help you accurately portray history. I don't think characterizing
Calvin
> as being someone with murderous hatred, or as someone who murdered
Servetus,
> is a good way of presenting that contrast. Stick with the modern
> disciplines of Calvinism and Arminianism and perhaps your goal will be
more
> readily realized.
cd: while I believe there was some "drifting" from the origional thoughts
of Calvin-I find that the "TULIP" is from the teaching of Calvin.
>
> I really am interested in conversing more, but I have lots of work here
to
> do and some research concerning my preaching campaign at the University
of
> Florida. I hope you understand.
cd: I understand and hope God is with you in your stand against the U of M.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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