Re: [TruthTalk] Cross

[Dave Hansen]

DH, your assessment of the world's point of view on this is neither accurate DAVEH:  I assume you saw the picture of the cemetery with all the crosses on it, John?  (If not, I've posted it below.)   Do you think those crosses indicate that those buried below them are Christians?     Perhaps I am wrong, but as I see it most Christians are myopic in their religious perspective.  I think much of this is based on their Biblical steadfastness in believing in the only true living God in such a narrow sense that all others are of a minority status and their perspective is not really relevant.  Therefore, it is easy for Christians who are surrounded by other similar thinking Christians to perceive the world revolves around their Christian theology.  So, when most Christians see a cross, their immediate perception is one of Jesus due to their lives being immersed in Christian culture, and hence I believe they tend to impose their presupposed believes upon others of whom they do not consider their cultural, historical or religious background.  (I have noticed a similar effect with the way many Christians impose their religious perceptions on what they think LDS folks believe....and often times simply get it wrong due to their biases.)      Consider that only about a third (2 billion) of the world is Christian, and two-thirds (4 billion) are non-Christian.......... http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html ............If the typical person raised in the Muslim world, or in China or India sees a cemetery filled with crosses, what do you suppose they will perceive those crosses to represent.......Christ?  I suspect not, but rather would perceive a field of crosses planted in the ground such as this..... .......to represent dead people of whatever belief background.     Let me ask you a question, John.  Let's suppose you are walking through the above cross dotted cemetery and came across a Muslim visiting the grave of one of his Muslim friends buried there.  You begin chatting with him and he asks you a question....."Why did they put a cross above my Muslim friend's body?"   I doubt that you would tell him that the cross means the guy beneath it is a Christian......     Now Bishop, I don't mind if you still disagree with me on this, as I'm sure you have a strong emotional attachment to the cross.  But consider....IF you believe those above crosses represent the Christians who are buried there, then how many of those crosses represent Mormon Christians buried beneath them?  There have been more than a few TTers who want to deny LDS folks the right to call themselves Christians.  Now it seems some of those same anti-Mormons want to claim that having a cross planted over their dead bodies indicates they are now Christians?   Before death, those who do not subscribe to some TTers' theology are pagan and not worthy of the Christian moniker........Then plant a cross over their grave and suddenly they become Christian because of the symbol above their bodies???  What changed?.....let me answer that, JD.........just death.    Which is what I am saying....the cross represents death. or relevant. DAVEH:   I respectfully disagree with you on that, Pastor.  Some TTers criticize LDS theology for using symbols that to us represent Jesus in all his glory.  That those symbols may be similar in some ways to symbols used by other pagan groups really doesn't matter.  Nor does it seem to matter that many Christians have adopted pagan symbols to represent Christian principles and beliefs.  To us, the meaning of our symbols is clean, pure and relevant to our theology, belief and faith in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.     Does it bother you in the least when TTers attack us for our sacred symbols?   I suspect not, but I could be wrong.     However, when I acutely and truthfully point out that the cross was a devilish device constructed by the enemies of God to torture and kill his son, and then correctly point out that there are a lot of people buried beneath crosses who those same critical TTers would never consider to be Christians.......then I am criticized for denigrating the cross, and those who believe in the cross.  Doesn't that seem just a little bit hypocritical to you, John?  Mormon TTers are just expected to take critical comments made on TT and be ashamed of their inferior beliefs, and not expected to point out the deficiencies in the logic of those TTers who are critical of Mormonism.  Is this not a prime example of Christian hypocrisy?   To me it seems like a double standard, and that IMHO Paster is imminently relevant! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes  !   and , by the way,   DH, your assessment of the world's point of view on this is neither accurate or relevant.     and this statement borders on insulting:     One of the weirdest songs I ever heard was The Old Rugged Cross.  It seemed  to glorify the cross in a negative way.  I doubt the Lord even to this day is overly fond of that old rugged cross. :>) Blainerb      I have to say something here  --  both of you have made it clear  (and I am not angry , by the way)  that your stay here on TT has given you nothing in terms of reason for crossing over.   Well,   consider your failure in this regard, as well.   With as much  variety as exists here amongst us Christians,  you would think someone would consider the Mormon religion.  But this latest discussion, while revealing, would surely close the door to any serious student of the Bible.   To put down "death" and the "cross"  is to simply miss the point of the life of Christ here on this earth  ..............  and miss the mark by a wide margin  !!!     jd   -------------- Original message -------------- From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I think that we have isolated the problem, Dave.  You seem to be thinking like the world instead of as a follower who has taken up the cross and died to self. Terry Dave Hansen wrote: Those wearing one are sending a message that they follow Christ. DAVEH:   Unfortunately, they naively fail to understand the message they are sending, IMHO.  As I've explained before, the world recognizes the cross as a symbol of death.  And for anybody familiar with the historical meaning of what the cross did to our Savior, why they would want to project a message of torture, suffering and death.........is simply incredible to me. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.