David,
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Perry, thanks for taking the time. I now understand better how you are
reading it, and your reason for why the switch from ye to they and them is
reasonable, although I would have expected something more along the lines
of
"those of you" for clarity's sake.
Perhaps "They" vs "Those of you" was the translator's choice. Perhaps it is
rendered exactly the way the greek says it.
You asked which of us have been led of the Spirit to our reading. You are
the only one who has made a claim of revelation concerning this passage.
I'm simply reading it at face value. I will take up what you have shared
in
prayer and consider it further. At this moment, I still have reservations
about it. Does God really give promises to some in the church that he does
not give to others? Your rendering leads to the idea that there exists a
clergy in the body of Christ which is special to God with special promises.
I see the clergy and laity distinction as something that crept into the
church later, just as the pope concept did, and the single pastor / ceo of
the congregation concept did. It seems to me that I will have to
re-examine
all my views concerning this if your perspective is right here. I am more
than willing to do this.
I think He does give promises to some that he does not give to others. In
the days of the early church, I think the those particular signs were given
to the apostles to validate their message, and to protect them in carrying
out their mission to spread the gospel. Perhaps all of those same signs and
protection are not needed by all. Today, not all speak in tongues, not all
heal, not all teach. Yet I doubt if the inability to perform any of those
signs is an indication of one's position in Christ.
You referenced Luke 16:18 below. Just to make sure I am not missing
something you said, did you mean Mark 16:18, kind of like I meant Mark when
I typed John? I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Yes, I meant Mark.
Also, to be clear about this, is it your sincere testimony that the Holy
Spirit came upon you and gave you this viewpoint? Did you experience some
kind of vision or dream that brought this perspective? This is an
important
witness if you are taking this position. I thought you were perhaps saying
this flippantly, as if revelation by the Spirit no longer happens today.
Maybe you can tell me more about how this line of thinking came to you.
David, this is going to be a rather drawn out explanation, including some of
my history, that I think most are not interested in, and probably a bit more
than you are asking for. Let me draw this up and send it to you privately.
Perry
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Comments below:
>From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Perry wrote:
> > I beleive the verse about preaching to all creatures to be
parenthetical
>to the rest of the passage, telling the apostles their commission, but
not
>changing the subject of his address, namely those whom he had just
>upbraided for thier unbelief.
>The verses leading up to and including verse 14 are a narrative spoken by
>the author, John. John is the one who refers to the eleven as they
>andthem. This is not Jesus addressing anyone.
Either you haved erred, or you need to explain this to me...I thought the
author was Mark.
>Verse 15 starts with, "And HE said unto them..." I assume the antecedent
>of "He" is Jesus. So after this phrase in verse 15, it is Jesus
speaking,
>up to but not including verse 19 where it says, "THEN AFTER THE LORD HAD
>SPOKEN." Verse 19 resumes the narrative by John, and so the antecedent
of
>"they and them" switches back to the original, which would be the eleven.
>So, when he says "YE" in verse 15, he is referring to the eleven, and
>therefore "they or them" are referring to others to whom they preach.
When
>Jesus is speaking, he would use the word "YE" again if he meant to refer
to
>the eleven. Why start out talking to them saying "Go YE" but then switch
>to saying THEY or THEM? Who speaks in this way, addressing a group and
>instead of saying "YOU" says "THEY or THEM"? Or is it possible that you
>assume that Jesus is not the one speaking in verses 16-18?
David, let me repeat the verses here with the antecedents
embedded...perhaps
that will better show you what the Holy Spirit revealed to me:
(14) Afterward he [Jesus] appeared unto the eleven as they [the eleven] sat
at meat, and upbraided them [the eleven] with their [the eleven] unbelief
and hardness of heart, because they [the eleven] believed not them [the
Marys] which had seen him [Jesus] after he [Jesus] was risen.
(15) And he [Jesus] said unto them [the eleven], Go ye [the eleven] into
all
the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[It is important at this point to recall that Jesus has just upbraided the
apostles (v14) for their unbelief!]
(16) He [of the eleven] that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but
he [of the eleven] that believeth not shall be damned.
[notice in verse 17 that the focus changes from "the 11" to "those of the
eleven that believe" (which turned out to be all of them, I believe). It is
no longer proper to refer to them as "ye" since "they" and "them" now
refers
to a subset of "ye". He cannot say "ye" without implying ALL of the 11!]
(17) And these signs shall follow them [of the elven] that believe; In my
name shall they [those of the eleven that believe] cast out devils; they
[those of the eleven that believe] shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They [those of of the eleven that believe] shall take up serpents; and
if they [those of of the eleven that believe] drink any deadly thing, it
shall not hurt them [those of of the eleven that believe]; they [those of
of
the eleven that believe] shall lay hands on the sick, and they [those of of
the eleven that believe] shall recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them [the eleven], he [Jesus]
was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they [the eleven] went forth, and preached every where, the Lord
working with them [the eleven], and confirming the word with signs
following. Amen.
That is how it was revealed to me.
As to your earlier reference to Luke 10:19 (in a different post) about the
70 treading on serpents...the 70 were given a similar commision as was
given
to the 11...so it makes sense that they would receive similar powers.
We cannot assume that if Jesus gave certain powers to the 11, or to the
seventy, that it automatically means all Christians would have those same
powers. If it states elsewhere that all Christians are given certain
powers,
then so be it. But when he is talking to the 11, or to the seventy...that
is
to whom is giving the powers. (If you still doubt me, go drink some poison,
play with some poisonous snakes and scorpions, or walk out in front of a
speeding vehicle. Do you look left and right before crossing the road? If
so, doesn't that show a lack of faith in Luke 10:19 and Luke 16:18)
Also, notice that verse 20 affirms my understanding by stating that the
Apostles did indeed confirm the gospel with the powerss they were
given...why does it not affirm that those to whom the gospel was preached
exhibited those signs?
I think we have covered everything and each know what our differences are.
There is only one thing left to be resolved...which of us was led to our
understanding by the Holy Spirit? You? Me? Neither? (We have agreed that we
both could not be led to our respective conclusions by the Holy Spirit.)
Perry
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
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