David -- this post causes me some concern.
Aaahh, but I will limit my response to your comments. Read on.
I did state your characterization.
You characterized it as, "the apostles had a measure of the Spirit that was
in addition that of the gifts of the Spirit." 1 Cor. 12 discusses
spiritual manifestations and administrations of the Holy Spirit in a more
equal way, explaining diversity, never attributing some to having had a
greater measure of the Spirit. It teaches us that upon the less seemly
parts we bestow more abundant honor. Then it lists offices in an
ordering of priorities, with apostles first, then prophets, then teachers,
and after teachers the other manifestations that you apparently accept as
long as they are not "faith healings," whatever that means. Nowhere in
this text does it speak about apostles passing away in the first
century. Apostles are listed right there along with teachers, a
characterization that appears different to me than the way your teaching
about them comes across.
> John wrote:
&g t; > ... the 7 deacons could not do
anything of a
> > miracluous nature before the apostles layed
> > hands on them.
>
> Mere speculation on your
part, which flies in the face of church tradition and historical
writings. Furthermore, the Scriptures themselves suggest otherwise
when they describe these men already as men of faith, filled with the
Holy Ghost. No more speculative than your
position. What church tradition do you have in mind? What
is your source on 'historical writings?"
I find it strange that you carry these
non-Pentecostal doctrines while being part of a Pentecostal church and
representing yourself to others as a Pentecostal. You proudly
affiliate with the Four Square church, but go against the founder's theology
so forcefully, much like many Methodists today do against John and Charles
Wesley. I've just not seen it much in Pentecostal circles like this,
so you are hearing from me about it. Your readings are obviously not
from Pentecostal theologians. You appear very reticent to share
their names with us.
> John wrote:
> > There is no more impartation of
scripture.
>
> Speculation and presumption, which might be
right, but it has no basis of authority. Now, right, I have to believe that you have, once again,
found yourself to be in theological pickle (see how much better I
do when I stick with bibilcial considerations and avoid discussions on
"logic" and the like?) You admit that the apostle do have uniques
powers and appear to agree that there is no more scripture ("..you might be
right ..") -- but, well, if you agreee totally, you don't
get to right in a discussion with John the Dufus so you speak of
"speculation, preseumption ... [and] no basis of
authority" for believing that the Bible is closed any additional
scripture ------------ somethin I actually believe YOU
believe. But save facr if you must. It just makes
you look a little silly.
I think of the 12, there was only John left
at the time Revelation was written. Nevertheless, I do believe
that there were other apostles still alive at the time because they were
testing them. The Didache mentions other apostles and gives tests
for determining true apostles and prophets from false ones too.
Your theology about apostles has great difficulty with church history and
tradition, relying upon the ignorance of our modern culture with these early
writings.
I have known personally two men who have been raised from the
dead. I have met apostles who have reported to me experiences of
raising the dead, of people being healed as they walked by, and who
have had cloths taken to the sick and seen them healed. Just because
you have met false apostles does not mean they are all false apostles.
I have met false apostles too.
And now wee come to the difficult
part. You cannot and do not deal with issues I have raised with
a continued discussion of the biblical text. Rather, you turn to
personal testimony.
Excuse me, John, but you are the one who
turned this to personal testimony. I was responding to your lack of
personal observations being put forward as evidence that there are no
apostles today. Why is it fair for you to claim you have never met
one, and not fair for me to testify about my experience?
The problem is complicated by the fact that I
believe that God can raise the dead in this day and time.
Yes, this is a "complication" I encounter all
the time with Baptists who say they believe in healing, just not faith
healers. What's the difference between me and the Baptist
who prays for healing? I pray expecting to see the person healed,
so now I am suddenly labeled a faith healer, sometimes accused of practicing
medicine without a license, and the poor Baptist who prays not expecting any
results unless God answers despite his unbelief is the truly
Biblical one because he does not presume to believe that God will heal
anyone.
We have prayed for people who
were technically "dead" who came back.. Such a miracle is credited to
prayer. No one has ever been raised the mortuary's
slabe, however. But let's not get into personal argument on this
issue. I do not and will never accept modern day testimony on
these matters apart from personal verification. I
cnanot.
You sound just like Thomas. Fair
enough, but don't criticize those of us who believe without personal
verification. Jesus said, "because thou hast seen me, thou hast
believed: blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have
believed."
I am a pastor and what I say is beleive by
others. So I will not speak from your experience.
Sorry. Nothing personal. Our experiences, apparently
, are vastly different. And within the Four Square commu
nity, I am verymuch at home. This would be their stance as
well.
I don't expect you to speak from my
experience. I only hope for you to hear me and to believe my
testimony.
> When Jesus ascended on high, he gave gifts unto men, namely,
apostles,
> prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. The reason
they were given was
> for the perfecting of the saints, for the work
of the ministry, and for the
> edifying of the body of Christ. This
was to be until we all come in the
> unity of the faith and of the
knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect
> man, unto the measure
of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Now when
> someone starts
stripping away these gifts, claiming that the apostles are no
>
longer in the body of Christ, or that the modern prophet is now the
>
theologian, or other such fantasies, it only serves to change the body of
> Christ into something else, more akin to a Christian social club.
Why is it
> that people are so accepting of teachers and pastors, but
they do everything
> they can to discredit and remove from the body
of Christ the apostles and
> prophets? I say that until we are
brought into unity of faith and
> knowledge, unto a perfect man and
the fullness of Christ, we need them all.
> If we have not arrived at
such, part of the reason is that we reject the
> present day ministry
of apostles and prophets, so the local church has no
> solid
foundation in Christ.
>
> Ephesians 4:8-16
> (8)
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity
>
captive, and gave gifts unto men.
> (9) (Now that he ascended, what
is it but that he also descended first into
> the lower parts of the
earth?
> (10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far
above all
> heavens, that he might fill all things.)
> (11)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
> and some, pastors and teachers;
> (12) For the perfecting of
the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the
> edifying of the
body of Christ:
> (13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, an
d of the knowledge of the
> Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the
measure of the stature of the
> fulness of Christ:
> (14) That
we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried
>
about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning
> craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
> (15) But
speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things,
>
which is the head, even Christ:
> (16) From whom the whole body fitly
joined together and compacted by that
> which every joint supplieth,
according to the effectual working in the
> measure of every part,
maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of
> itself in love.
>
> Ephesians 2:19-22
> (19) Now therefore ye are no
more strangers and foreigners, but
> fellowcitizens with the saints,
and of the household of God;
> (20) And are built upon the foundation
of the apostles and prophets, Jesus
> Christ himself being the ch ief
corner stone;
> (21) In whom all the building fitly framed together
groweth unto an holy
> temple in the Lord:
> (22) In whom ye
also are builded together for an habitation of God through
> the
Spirit.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned
with salt, that you may know how
> you ought to answer every man."
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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