Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets

[knpraise]

 

 

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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

 

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From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> John wrote:
> > When you read this word, you see "office"
> > and argue from that perspective. When
> > I see the word "apostle." I see function,
> > assignment, a specific and personal calling
> > to the exclusion of "office."
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "to the exclusion of office," but you have
> basically given a definition for how I use the word office.

>
> John wrote:
> > ... [apostles were] presented with the assignment of
> > imparting the message of Christ in word and script.
>
> Where in Scripture do you see the apostles being given the assignment of
> imparting the message of Christ in script? I don't think that was part of
> their assignment because most of them did not leave us script, and it seems
> likely to me that most of them never wrote anything. I believe their
> assignment was oral preaching and ministry to the poor and sick.

They are told to go into all the world and preach the gospel.  Christ trained them for three years to do so.  They were gifted with powers that were specifice to them and their mission.   for example  --  we have no reason to believe that anyone but the apostles could perform drive-by healings, healings by imported cloth,  raising of the dead, or speaking in tongues that were understood by all who heard.  In addition to this,  the very fact that most of the NT scriptures were written by an apostle on under his supervision is proof encough, I think.  Please note that in the city of Jerusalem, the first of the thousands converted to Christ, were taught by one of the Apostles  --  just the 12.   The new converts sat in "Bible study" for days and days as the 12 taught them the revelation of Jesus Christ.  They (the 12) had the power of binding and loosing and the power of physical death. 
>
> John wrote:
> > It is a function to me and an office to you.
>
> No, it is a function to me too, but the word "office" helps describe an
> assigned function in the body of Christ. It is a stewardship, a
> responsibility to the body of Christ that they have.

No office is function free, David.   But some functions are office free.   The diffference between you and myself is the difference between function and office.   I do not believe in an "office" called apostle.   When the described functions of their assignment were completed,  their work was done and they stepped down from the scene but continued as the foundation of the church in terms of legacy and the revelation of the gospel to the world.   

>
> John wrote:
> > IMO, a faith healer is one who thinks he/she has
> > identical powers and purpose as that of Jesus and
> > the typical "12." That power emanates from their
> > person.
>
> Say what???? I don't know of any "faith healer" who has ever claimed that
> "power emanates from their person." Even the apostles decried such
> characterizations (Acts 14). Please name me one faith healer who has ever
> held to such a position.

I am talking about their manner of conduct, David.   They pretend to have the powers of the apostles  -----  for only the Apostle could do what the faith healer claims to do  (and I am speaking of the miraculous, only).  More than the difference in the kinds of miracles, consider this:     They do not have the power to bind or loose, to pass judgment that leads to physical dath,  to raise bodies from the mortuary slabe, to preach in one language and be heard in any number of other languages or to heal all whom they try to heal  ------------   and they are not even close on this one.  Now , that is the faith healer.   Count it as "ditto" when it comes to modern day Apostles.  The church in Ephesus tested the "spostles" and found all to be false !!  That will be the case in today's economy as well. 

>
> I have brought up Smith Wigglesworth as a faith healer of the last century.
> If you like, we can talk about him from my perspective of what a faith
> healer is.

No need.  I am not ignorant when it comes to modern day faith healers.  
>
> John wrote:
> > He [Wigglesworth] does not seem to fit into the mold
> > of the "faith healer." But, I really do not know.
>
> If Smith Wigglesworth does not fit the mold of a faith healer, then I don't
> know of anyone, including the apostles of Scripture, who would. He prayed
> for the sick, had healing lines in his meetings where he would lay hands
> upon the sick, and he had tremendous testimonies of people being healed and
> raised from the dead.

 

 Heresay, David.  I have already told you of my concern in this regard. 

You and I cannot point to a single healer, not one,
> > David, who healed all who made appearances at
> > their services IN SPITE OF AN EFFORT TO DO
> > SO.
>
> I am not aware of any effort to do so, but I would agree with you that I do
> not know of anyone who healed all who came to them. The problem from my
> perspective is that unbelief is far too prevalent for us to expect such to
> happen.

Yes, an easy out for the modern day faith healer.  The fact is, they could heal in spite of lack of faith  .............  their faith was sufficient.  When the apostles came back to Jesus and report failings in their attempt to heal,  Christ did not blame the happless crowds.  Rather, He gave direction (prayer and fasting) to those activities that focused the faith of the healer. 
>
> John wrote:
> > I do not see that same failure when I consider
> > Jesus and the apostles or those whom they
> > commissioned.
>
> The Bible gives us an example of where the apostles failed to heal, and even
> Jesus too was unable to heal sometimes.
>
> Matthew 17:16
> (16) And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

See my comments above.  Add to those words this statement from Christ :  "You failed because of your lack of faith !!!!!"  --- spoken to the 12.  You didn't know this??
>
> Mark 6:5
> (5) And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a
> few sick folk, and healed them.

So, you make this single exception the rule?  I am saying that 99.9% of those who attend a faith healing go home hungry.  And if your estimate is lower  -- by no means would either estimate mirror the "failure" rate of Christ or the Apostles after Pentecost Day.  No comparison at all. 

>
> John wrote:
> > I have given you reference !!
> > I have quoted from several biblical writers.
>
> I'm talking about your assertion that you are on the side of theologians and
> I am not. Which theologians hold to this viewpoint of yours that the
> prophets today are guys like Barth, Wright, etc.

Please present my statement in full context.  I will be glad to respond.   But let me make this clear  -- I, Juan Smithson, I am saying that the prophets in the Ephesian letter, those who are the foundation of the continuing Asembly of God include the theologians of any particular day and time within the church.  Quality exegetical study, on my part, opens the door to this conclusion. 

>
> John wrote:
> > What is not going to work, in this discussion, is
> > for you to continue to pretend that I might be
> > making up "stuff." I do not do this.
>
> Please reference for me those who have fed you the thoughts you have, that  there are no faith healers today, that the last apostle was John, and that 
prophets are theologians like Barth, Wright, etc. If you are not making  this stuff up, then who is teaching it to you? If possible, give me some  Pentecostal references please.

I am not a lap dog, David, devouring whatever is thrown to me that suits my fancy.   I will not answers questions cast in this light.  I will tell you that exegetical study gives me the open door to draw this conclusion.    Secondly,  I am the one who is telling you there is no one , today, who has the powers the faith healers claim to have.  And Charismatics need to get a handle on this. Am I making this up, because this is my conclusion?  I think not.  I have witnessed hundreds of healing assemblies , large or small.  The end of the matter is always the same.   Comparative few are healed.  But healing does occur.  Aaaaaahhhhh, [finally]  there is a world of scholarship that tells us that John is the last Apostle.  jd

.
> David Miller.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
> you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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