On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 8:02 PM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote: > No it does not mean this. As I tried to argue a few days ago, your > question is based on the false assumption that the critique of Apu is > simply that ethnic comedy is wrong. That is simply not what the critique > has been. Apu is not the same as Krusty or Willy or Dr. Hibbert; most of > the ethnic characters are involved in some ethnic humor or depiction, but > also have some kind of complication or twist. The criticism of Apu is that > he is based on a single, simplistic and condescending stereotype. >
If the primary criticism truly is that Apu is more stereotypey (sp?) than all the other stereotypical characters on the series, I find serious flaws in that theory. If I were so inclined, I could go back to various episodes wherein they explore Apu’s faith, his family, his patriotism, and where they’ve taken him out of the Kwik E Mart to explore other vocations and other social and cultural situations. But it is a cartoon whose reality resets at the end of every episode, Apu will always work at the Kwik E Mart, just as Moe will always tend bar at Moe’s. As stated already, I’m willing to concede that if Indians are offended by the stereotype, their offense carries far greater weight than my views. But the degree to which Apu is a greater (or lesser) stereotype than what by now must be thousands of stereotypes in the series is (no pun intended) a cartoonish claim. Having South Asian voices in the writing room is not a statement that only > members of an ethnic group can make jokes about that group, but an > acknowledgement that in this particular case the runners of the show have > failed for 30 years to fix this problem, so maybe they can’t be trusted to > fix it on their own. > If the intent is to remove stereotypes from The Simpsons, they could pull writers from every country in the UN into the writers room, and it still won’t happen. Given the circumstances, anybody can become the subject of a joke. Given the circumstances, jokes can involve playing off of stereotypes without by itself being demonstrative of prejudice or intolerance. Don Rickles made a career out of latching onto the stereotype of whomever or whatever was near him and mining it for humor. And The Simpsons now has more episodes than Gunsmoke, and almost every episode’s story consists of taking a stereotype and bending it on its ear. Maybe as the rules or social acceptance get rewritten, it’ll turn out that the humor of The Simpsons is no longer appropriate. And I won’t deny the show’s quality isn’t what it used to be. But, no, Apu is no better or worse than all the other stereotypes on the show. If he has to go, so do the mobbed up Italian guy, the corrupt Irish politician, the cheese eating surrender monkeys, and on and on. And maybe that’s what will ultimately happen. > > > On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:33 PM Steve Timko <steveti...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> There's no question that writing rooms need to be diversified. The comedy >> writing rooms in particular seem to be dominated by Ivy League males. Or >> maybe it's just the comedies I watch. >> But Azaria seems a bit disingenuous to call specifically for south Asian >> writers. Does this mean they should have someone older than 72 in the >> writer's room so they can write about Grandpa Simpson and Mr. Burns? And >> if you have no Polynesian comedy writers, does that mean no Hawaiian, >> Tongan or Samoan characters? Do they need to check Inuit comedy clubs to >> get a writer so they can have Eskimo characters? >> >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 6:10 AM, PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Sorry - just saw you beat me to this... >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 5:59 AM Pete Ahles <pete.ah...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hank Azaria addressed the Apu issue on Colbert last night. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://news.avclub.com/on-the-late-show-hank-azaria-says-recasting-apu-seems-1825521305 >>>> >>>> >>>> Pete >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 12:36 AM, PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well, there are quite a few Indians in the world; I doubt they all >>>>> agree about Apu. >>>>> >>>>> I think the point of the critique by Kondabolu is not really that they >>>>> make fun of Apu, or even that they invoke stereotypes. As the Vox article >>>>> says: >>>>> >>>>> “The basis of Kondabolu’s argument has never been “Apu must go away,” >>>>> or even “Apu is the most racist character imaginable.” It has always been >>>>> that The Simpsons is a funny show, and one that has given the >>>>> character of Apu more dimensions than a lot of shows would have. But it >>>>> still has a massive blind spot when it comes to a character voiced by a >>>>> white man with a stereotypical Indian accent, who remains stuck in a >>>>> dead-end job.” >>>>> >>>>> I doubt there is a single joke that the Simpsons have done about Apu >>>>> that in itself is unacceptable or over the line. It is more that the basic >>>>> depiction so lazily and simplistic relies on the easiest and more >>>>> superficial cliche, that the structure of the show does not allow to be >>>>> developed or enlarged. As I say, this is a problem for the show in many >>>>> ways, and one reason why the last ten (fifteen?) years of the show have >>>>> been so much less impressive than the first ten. But it shows up most with >>>>> characters from backgrounds that most Americans have so little exposure >>>>> to, >>>>> and are treated so narrowly. >>>>> >>>>> Apu is not really like Krusty; Krusty is based on a particular type of >>>>> Jewish caricature (kind of a Borscht Belt Comic) - but that in itself is a >>>>> richer and more textured and less obvious template than the Indian 7-11 >>>>> operator. If the Simpsons had started in the 1930s and featured a Jewish >>>>> character who was a cheap, greedy banker it would be less funny. >>>>> Similarly, >>>>> it would be less funny if its main Black character was depicted as a white >>>>> man in black face. Instead though, two of the main Black characters on the >>>>> show are based on less obvious stereoptypes (one a doctor, the other a >>>>> police officer). The character of Apu is not as bad as either of the >>>>> extreme examples I suggest here, but it shares some of the problems. >>>>> >>>>> There are lots of ways to disagree with or at least temper this >>>>> critique; I myself only find it partially persuasive; but the dismissive >>>>> and, again, simplistic way they did it in that episode was beneath The >>>>> Simpsons. The critique was not simply a politically correct “don’t make >>>>> fun >>>>> of our minority group”, and to try to escape it by saying they can’t take >>>>> a >>>>> joke only shows they were not really listening. I am not a creative, funny >>>>> person, but the Simpson’s writing room is full of people who are - the >>>>> response should have been more along the lines of: “Yeah - and 30 years >>>>> later Bart is still 10 and Homer is still fat and stupid; if you are >>>>> looking for complex, realistic depictions you have probably come to the >>>>> wrong place”. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 1:46 PM Kevin M. <drunkbastar...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 10:47 AM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I appreciate the sensitivity to privilege in this thread (and the >>>>>>> ambivalence). Recognizing privilege doesn’t mean silencing yourself, it >>>>>>> does mean really seeking out and listening to those with a different >>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m familiar with the Indian perspective. I value it and respect that >>>>>> on the issue of Indian offense, their opinion carries greater weight. My >>>>>> opinion is not to say the depiction isn’t stereotypical, but that the >>>>>> entire series is constructed on stereotypes (not just racial but social, >>>>>> theological, sexual, and on), and its humor is found predominantly in >>>>>> tweaking those stereotypes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Apu is no better or worse off than any other average supporting >>>>>> character on the series. Sometimes he’s included as an equal part of the >>>>>> gang (bowling league, barbershop quartet...), other times he’s on the >>>>>> fringe. Sometimes he’s the hero, other times he’s the comic foil. I’m >>>>>> sure >>>>>> jokes have been made at his expense, and I’m sure his ethnicity was a >>>>>> topic >>>>>> of some of them (like I said, I concede the Indians perspective is >>>>>> valid), >>>>>> but my perspective is that Apu is as sympathetic an Indian character as >>>>>> Smithers is a sympathetic closeted-homosexual character. >>>>>> >>>>>> Overwhelmingly, the jokes made at their expense come from the mouth >>>>>> of an ignorant character. I suspect that in a real life town with roughly >>>>>> the same demographics as Springfield, a non-fiction Apu would not be as >>>>>> integrated into the community. I suppose Indians could attribute that to >>>>>> what they see as a negative depiction on the Simpsons, and I am in no >>>>>> position to argue that. But my perspective (the aforementioned white >>>>>> privileged one) differs. I defer to the opinion of the Indians, but I do >>>>>> not entirely agree with it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is link to the Problem with Apu doc: >>>>>>> http://www.trutv.com/shows/the-problem-with-apu/index.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is a nice discussion of the Simpson ‘s Apu problem: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2018/4/15/17236336/simpsons-apu-controversy-no-good-read-goes-unpunished-recap >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I really like about the piece is that it links this to broader >>>>>>> problems with the show itself- basically that one of its central >>>>>>> conceits >>>>>>> and arguably strengths (that the characters don’t change or experience >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> flow of time) makes it unable to depict growth and development- either >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the characters or its interaction with the culture. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the recent response in show was way worse than anything they >>>>>>> have ever done with the character himself. I don’t hate Apu and often >>>>>>> love >>>>>>> him, but the show at its best is worthy of a better solution to the >>>>>>> problem >>>>>>> he poses. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 9:51 AM 'Greg Diener' via TVorNotTV < >>>>>>> tvornottv@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The problem I have is if you condemn Apu as being an Indian >>>>>>>> stereotype then you might as well do the same with Krusty as a Jewish >>>>>>>> stereotype and Groundskeeper Willie being an Irish stereotype. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If anything the character of Apu throughout the show has been a >>>>>>>> hard-working immigrant who has made something of himself and has ended >>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>> with a wife and family over the course of the show. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But again I concede to Kevin's point, white guy, privilege probably >>>>>>>> negates the opinion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 4:36:36 PM UTC-4, Kevin M. (RPCV) >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Did anybody watch The Simpsons on Sunday? I have only seen the >>>>>>>>> clip wherein Lisa references the Apu controversy, but the online >>>>>>>>> backlash >>>>>>>>> has been extreme. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I’m a white male, so I fully understand that my privilege negates >>>>>>>>> my opinion on this issue. If Indians are offended by Apu, so be it. I >>>>>>>>> consider Fisher Stevens’ role(s) in the Short Circuit films more >>>>>>>>> worthy of >>>>>>>>> condemnation, as his character(s) had more stereotypes than the >>>>>>>>> accent, but >>>>>>>>> — again — white guy. >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Kevin M. (RPCV) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kevin M. (RPCV) >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- >>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TVorNotTV" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "TVorNotTV" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Kevin M. 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