Yes, i know Steve. That is not in dispute. It’s the reason he calls for that which is in dispute.
On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 8:12 PM Steve Timko <[email protected]> wrote: > Look at this video at the 27-second mark. He doesn't just call for > diversity. He calls for south Asian writers. > https://twitter.com/colbertlateshow/status/988991809723318272 > It can't be any more explicit than that. > > On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 8:02 PM, PGage <[email protected]> wrote: > >> No it does not mean this. As I tried to argue a few days ago, your >> question is based on the false assumption that the critique of Apu is >> simply that ethnic comedy is wrong. That is simply not what the critique >> has been. Apu is not the same as Krusty or Willy or Dr. Hibbert; most of >> the ethnic characters are involved in some ethnic humor or depiction, but >> also have some kind of complication or twist. The criticism of Apu is that >> he is based on a single, simplistic and condescending stereotype. Having >> South Asian voices in the writing room is not a statement that only members >> of an ethnic group can make jokes about that group, but an acknowledgement >> that in this particular case the runners of the show have failed for 30 >> years to fix this problem, so maybe they can’t be trusted to fix it on >> their own. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:33 PM Steve Timko <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> There's no question that writing rooms need to be diversified. The >>> comedy writing rooms in particular seem to be dominated by Ivy League >>> males. Or maybe it's just the comedies I watch. >>> But Azaria seems a bit disingenuous to call specifically for south Asian >>> writers. Does this mean they should have someone older than 72 in the >>> writer's room so they can write about Grandpa Simpson and Mr. Burns? And >>> if you have no Polynesian comedy writers, does that mean no Hawaiian, >>> Tongan or Samoan characters? Do they need to check Inuit comedy clubs to >>> get a writer so they can have Eskimo characters? >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 6:10 AM, PGage <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Sorry - just saw you beat me to this... >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 5:59 AM Pete Ahles <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hank Azaria addressed the Apu issue on Colbert last night. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://news.avclub.com/on-the-late-show-hank-azaria-says-recasting-apu-seems-1825521305 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Pete >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 12:36 AM, PGage <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Well, there are quite a few Indians in the world; I doubt they all >>>>>> agree about Apu. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the point of the critique by Kondabolu is not really that >>>>>> they make fun of Apu, or even that they invoke stereotypes. As the Vox >>>>>> article says: >>>>>> >>>>>> “The basis of Kondabolu’s argument has never been “Apu must go away,” >>>>>> or even “Apu is the most racist character imaginable.” It has always been >>>>>> that The Simpsons is a funny show, and one that has given the >>>>>> character of Apu more dimensions than a lot of shows would have. But it >>>>>> still has a massive blind spot when it comes to a character voiced by a >>>>>> white man with a stereotypical Indian accent, who remains stuck in a >>>>>> dead-end job.” >>>>>> >>>>>> I doubt there is a single joke that the Simpsons have done about Apu >>>>>> that in itself is unacceptable or over the line. It is more that the >>>>>> basic >>>>>> depiction so lazily and simplistic relies on the easiest and more >>>>>> superficial cliche, that the structure of the show does not allow to be >>>>>> developed or enlarged. As I say, this is a problem for the show in many >>>>>> ways, and one reason why the last ten (fifteen?) years of the show have >>>>>> been so much less impressive than the first ten. But it shows up most >>>>>> with >>>>>> characters from backgrounds that most Americans have so little exposure >>>>>> to, >>>>>> and are treated so narrowly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Apu is not really like Krusty; Krusty is based on a particular type >>>>>> of Jewish caricature (kind of a Borscht Belt Comic) - but that in itself >>>>>> is >>>>>> a richer and more textured and less obvious template than the Indian 7-11 >>>>>> operator. If the Simpsons had started in the 1930s and featured a Jewish >>>>>> character who was a cheap, greedy banker it would be less funny. >>>>>> Similarly, >>>>>> it would be less funny if its main Black character was depicted as a >>>>>> white >>>>>> man in black face. Instead though, two of the main Black characters on >>>>>> the >>>>>> show are based on less obvious stereoptypes (one a doctor, the other a >>>>>> police officer). The character of Apu is not as bad as either of the >>>>>> extreme examples I suggest here, but it shares some of the problems. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are lots of ways to disagree with or at least temper this >>>>>> critique; I myself only find it partially persuasive; but the dismissive >>>>>> and, again, simplistic way they did it in that episode was beneath The >>>>>> Simpsons. The critique was not simply a politically correct “don’t make >>>>>> fun >>>>>> of our minority group”, and to try to escape it by saying they can’t >>>>>> take a >>>>>> joke only shows they were not really listening. I am not a creative, >>>>>> funny >>>>>> person, but the Simpson’s writing room is full of people who are - the >>>>>> response should have been more along the lines of: “Yeah - and 30 years >>>>>> later Bart is still 10 and Homer is still fat and stupid; if you are >>>>>> looking for complex, realistic depictions you have probably come to the >>>>>> wrong place”. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 1:46 PM Kevin M. <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 10:47 AM PGage <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I appreciate the sensitivity to privilege in this thread (and the >>>>>>>> ambivalence). Recognizing privilege doesn’t mean silencing yourself, it >>>>>>>> does mean really seeking out and listening to those with a different >>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I’m familiar with the Indian perspective. I value it and respect >>>>>>> that on the issue of Indian offense, their opinion carries greater >>>>>>> weight. >>>>>>> My opinion is not to say the depiction isn’t stereotypical, but that the >>>>>>> entire series is constructed on stereotypes (not just racial but social, >>>>>>> theological, sexual, and on), and its humor is found predominantly in >>>>>>> tweaking those stereotypes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Apu is no better or worse off than any other average supporting >>>>>>> character on the series. Sometimes he’s included as an equal part of the >>>>>>> gang (bowling league, barbershop quartet...), other times he’s on the >>>>>>> fringe. Sometimes he’s the hero, other times he’s the comic foil. I’m >>>>>>> sure >>>>>>> jokes have been made at his expense, and I’m sure his ethnicity was a >>>>>>> topic >>>>>>> of some of them (like I said, I concede the Indians perspective is >>>>>>> valid), >>>>>>> but my perspective is that Apu is as sympathetic an Indian character as >>>>>>> Smithers is a sympathetic closeted-homosexual character. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Overwhelmingly, the jokes made at their expense come from the mouth >>>>>>> of an ignorant character. I suspect that in a real life town with >>>>>>> roughly >>>>>>> the same demographics as Springfield, a non-fiction Apu would not be as >>>>>>> integrated into the community. I suppose Indians could attribute that >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> what they see as a negative depiction on the Simpsons, and I am in no >>>>>>> position to argue that. But my perspective (the aforementioned white >>>>>>> privileged one) differs. I defer to the opinion of the Indians, but I do >>>>>>> not entirely agree with it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is link to the Problem with Apu doc: >>>>>>>> http://www.trutv.com/shows/the-problem-with-apu/index.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is a nice discussion of the Simpson ‘s Apu problem: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2018/4/15/17236336/simpsons-apu-controversy-no-good-read-goes-unpunished-recap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What I really like about the piece is that it links this to broader >>>>>>>> problems with the show itself- basically that one of its central >>>>>>>> conceits >>>>>>>> and arguably strengths (that the characters don’t change or experience >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> flow of time) makes it unable to depict growth and development- either >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the characters or its interaction with the culture. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think the recent response in show was way worse than anything >>>>>>>> they have ever done with the character himself. I don’t hate Apu and >>>>>>>> often >>>>>>>> love him, but the show at its best is worthy of a better solution to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> problem he poses. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 9:51 AM 'Greg Diener' via TVorNotTV < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The problem I have is if you condemn Apu as being an Indian >>>>>>>>> stereotype then you might as well do the same with Krusty as a Jewish >>>>>>>>> stereotype and Groundskeeper Willie being an Irish stereotype. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If anything the character of Apu throughout the show has been a >>>>>>>>> hard-working immigrant who has made something of himself and has >>>>>>>>> ended up >>>>>>>>> with a wife and family over the course of the show. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But again I concede to Kevin's point, white guy, privilege >>>>>>>>> probably negates the opinion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 4:36:36 PM UTC-4, Kevin M. (RPCV) >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Did anybody watch The Simpsons on Sunday? I have only seen the >>>>>>>>>> clip wherein Lisa references the Apu controversy, but the online >>>>>>>>>> backlash >>>>>>>>>> has been extreme. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I’m a white male, so I fully understand that my privilege negates >>>>>>>>>> my opinion on this issue. If Indians are offended by Apu, so be it. I >>>>>>>>>> consider Fisher Stevens’ role(s) in the Short Circuit films more >>>>>>>>>> worthy of >>>>>>>>>> condemnation, as his character(s) had more stereotypes than the >>>>>>>>>> accent, but >>>>>>>>>> — again — white guy. >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Kevin M. (RPCV) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kevin M. 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