Sorry - just saw you beat me to this... On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 5:59 AM Pete Ahles <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hank Azaria addressed the Apu issue on Colbert last night. > > > https://news.avclub.com/on-the-late-show-hank-azaria-says-recasting-apu-seems-1825521305 > > > Pete > > On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 12:36 AM, PGage <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Well, there are quite a few Indians in the world; I doubt they all agree >> about Apu. >> >> I think the point of the critique by Kondabolu is not really that they >> make fun of Apu, or even that they invoke stereotypes. As the Vox article >> says: >> >> “The basis of Kondabolu’s argument has never been “Apu must go away,” or >> even “Apu is the most racist character imaginable.” It has always been that >> The >> Simpsons is a funny show, and one that has given the character of Apu >> more dimensions than a lot of shows would have. But it still has a massive >> blind spot when it comes to a character voiced by a white man with a >> stereotypical Indian accent, who remains stuck in a dead-end job.” >> >> I doubt there is a single joke that the Simpsons have done about Apu that >> in itself is unacceptable or over the line. It is more that the basic >> depiction so lazily and simplistic relies on the easiest and more >> superficial cliche, that the structure of the show does not allow to be >> developed or enlarged. As I say, this is a problem for the show in many >> ways, and one reason why the last ten (fifteen?) years of the show have >> been so much less impressive than the first ten. But it shows up most with >> characters from backgrounds that most Americans have so little exposure to, >> and are treated so narrowly. >> >> Apu is not really like Krusty; Krusty is based on a particular type of >> Jewish caricature (kind of a Borscht Belt Comic) - but that in itself is a >> richer and more textured and less obvious template than the Indian 7-11 >> operator. If the Simpsons had started in the 1930s and featured a Jewish >> character who was a cheap, greedy banker it would be less funny. Similarly, >> it would be less funny if its main Black character was depicted as a white >> man in black face. Instead though, two of the main Black characters on the >> show are based on less obvious stereoptypes (one a doctor, the other a >> police officer). The character of Apu is not as bad as either of the >> extreme examples I suggest here, but it shares some of the problems. >> >> There are lots of ways to disagree with or at least temper this >> critique; I myself only find it partially persuasive; but the dismissive >> and, again, simplistic way they did it in that episode was beneath The >> Simpsons. The critique was not simply a politically correct “don’t make fun >> of our minority group”, and to try to escape it by saying they can’t take a >> joke only shows they were not really listening. I am not a creative, funny >> person, but the Simpson’s writing room is full of people who are - the >> response should have been more along the lines of: “Yeah - and 30 years >> later Bart is still 10 and Homer is still fat and stupid; if you are >> looking for complex, realistic depictions you have probably come to the >> wrong place”. >> >> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 1:46 PM Kevin M. <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 10:47 AM PGage <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I appreciate the sensitivity to privilege in this thread (and the >>>> ambivalence). Recognizing privilege doesn’t mean silencing yourself, it >>>> does mean really seeking out and listening to those with a different >>>> experience. >>>> >>> >>> I’m familiar with the Indian perspective. I value it and respect that on >>> the issue of Indian offense, their opinion carries greater weight. My >>> opinion is not to say the depiction isn’t stereotypical, but that the >>> entire series is constructed on stereotypes (not just racial but social, >>> theological, sexual, and on), and its humor is found predominantly in >>> tweaking those stereotypes. >>> >>> Apu is no better or worse off than any other average supporting >>> character on the series. Sometimes he’s included as an equal part of the >>> gang (bowling league, barbershop quartet...), other times he’s on the >>> fringe. Sometimes he’s the hero, other times he’s the comic foil. I’m sure >>> jokes have been made at his expense, and I’m sure his ethnicity was a topic >>> of some of them (like I said, I concede the Indians perspective is valid), >>> but my perspective is that Apu is as sympathetic an Indian character as >>> Smithers is a sympathetic closeted-homosexual character. >>> >>> Overwhelmingly, the jokes made at their expense come from the mouth of >>> an ignorant character. I suspect that in a real life town with roughly the >>> same demographics as Springfield, a non-fiction Apu would not be as >>> integrated into the community. I suppose Indians could attribute that to >>> what they see as a negative depiction on the Simpsons, and I am in no >>> position to argue that. But my perspective (the aforementioned white >>> privileged one) differs. I defer to the opinion of the Indians, but I do >>> not entirely agree with it. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Here is link to the Problem with Apu doc: >>>> http://www.trutv.com/shows/the-problem-with-apu/index.html >>>> >>>> Here is a nice discussion of the Simpson ‘s Apu problem: >>>> >>>> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2018/4/15/17236336/simpsons-apu-controversy-no-good-read-goes-unpunished-recap >>>> >>>> What I really like about the piece is that it links this to broader >>>> problems with the show itself- basically that one of its central conceits >>>> and arguably strengths (that the characters don’t change or experience the >>>> flow of time) makes it unable to depict growth and development- either in >>>> the characters or its interaction with the culture. >>>> >>>> I think the recent response in show was way worse than anything they >>>> have ever done with the character himself. I don’t hate Apu and often love >>>> him, but the show at its best is worthy of a better solution to the problem >>>> he poses. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 9:51 AM 'Greg Diener' via TVorNotTV < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The problem I have is if you condemn Apu as being an Indian stereotype >>>>> then you might as well do the same with Krusty as a Jewish stereotype and >>>>> Groundskeeper Willie being an Irish stereotype. >>>>> >>>>> If anything the character of Apu throughout the show has been a >>>>> hard-working immigrant who has made something of himself and has ended up >>>>> with a wife and family over the course of the show. >>>>> >>>>> But again I concede to Kevin's point, white guy, privilege probably >>>>> negates the opinion. >>>>> >>>>> Greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 4:36:36 PM UTC-4, Kevin M. (RPCV) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Did anybody watch The Simpsons on Sunday? I have only seen the clip >>>>>> wherein Lisa references the Apu controversy, but the online backlash has >>>>>> been extreme. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m a white male, so I fully understand that my privilege negates my >>>>>> opinion on this issue. If Indians are offended by Apu, so be it. I >>>>>> consider >>>>>> Fisher Stevens’ role(s) in the Short Circuit films more worthy of >>>>>> condemnation, as his character(s) had more stereotypes than the accent, >>>>>> but >>>>>> — again — white guy. >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kevin M. (RPCV) >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- >>> Kevin M. (RPCV) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TVorNotTV" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "TVorNotTV" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVorNotTV" group. 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