Sorry Bob (not to single you out, on the contrary thanks for your reply and sharing your experience) but just be aware I never not enter a thread lightly, nor were my words hasty. This has been a situation years in the making, with plenty of evidence behind it, and I've been many years in the LC arena. My list and forum silence may sometimes mask my eternal presence and busy contributions. I realize that the human mind tends to favor the loudest and most frequent voices (in marketing it's recognized that an audience needs to hear a message repeated 3 times to even notice it, whereas if you repeat yourself 3 times in code you've broken a rule) so when popping up now and then, I will remind the hasty of reply that while my points are easy to dismiss on the subjective basis of being heard less frequently, they are built on solid ground and difficult to overturn by factual or logical approach.

(I don't have spare time to be one of the loudest and most frequent voices here, so for better or worse this post must satisfy the obligatory 3 times mentioning, and unfortunately that's all I can spare; I'll be back in lurk/work mode soon after this because as my clients know, they come first; no exceptions. Even addons come second and conversation is last. To sum up what years of factual records will show, I'm not one of the most frequent posters here on the list, but I am one of the most frequently involved consultants in the LC world. So....)

Not to put too fine a point on this, but ALL development
environments suffer from this.

Not all to the same extent. And there's the difference, adding to personal preference and work needs/range of experience. Without going too far down that potentially red herring road, when it could be called suffering it's too much. When done right it doesn't cause suffering. That will vary per personal preference, bias, and experience, but what stays true is that efficiency is better than a lack of it. I'm sure you have many examples, but I would have many counter-examples, plus I think arguing for quality and efficiency is a stronger position that arguing for a lower-quality, lower-efficiency bandwagon. Winning an irrelevant contest of examples would not weaken my point, so we can probably save that particular trip.

I moved projects from LC6 to LC9 with little difficulty.
My problems revolved around app building, and I got through
that fairly simply.

I'm genuinely happy for you there! I work for a wide variety of client projects and my own addons and other projects, so it takes me lots of places within LC. Not one platform nor approach nor area of LC endeavors. I also have spent a lot of time tracking down issues to report, investing my own addon income right back in LC debugging rather than own products, to help LC through the transitions, and many of those bugs have been fixed. You may have benefited from those and the efforts of others who dedicated a lot of time to that. So I applaud your own luck and lack of trouble, but perhaps fortunately you were in an area that benefited from the most attention to fixes and the least need for performance.

But never mind me; for anyone to argue that there was no extra work involved, they would have to scrub some messages from the list in general and this thread in particular. I'm not sure if you read the original post in this thread, but the extra work was acknowledged right there when starting this thread, by others. Without that, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place, no matter whether criticism or justification, so I feel no need to say more on that point; sufficiently documented although perhaps not a universal condition. But remember, not everyone who became frustrated came back. There were other discussions, including a somewhat hilarious one that I can't relate here due to privacy agreements but where I was the person complaining the LEAST of many prominent LC members in that particular conversation.

(Likewise, those separate points of defense argue against themselves to a degree; if there was no trouble in your case, then do all environments indeed suffer the problem? Separately good defenses, but together, not quite as strong.)

Sorry again (and nothing personal, I appreciate your comments) and can understand your POV from your particular experience, but no amount of talk can disprove (A) repeatable test results and (B) the economics of efficiency. Those will stand on their own.

I could go on singing my own praises, but my point is, the
assessment of profitability often depends largely on where you
decide to plant your flag.

As I said, I'm stable here, as are the laws of this universe - no running off disappointed or depressed, no coming back and gushing over it. No urge to overly defend or rationalize the last two years, nor any need to criticize beyond an objective measure.

My work has been consistent and steady, and in fact I've also gained some extra work from the LC 6 to 9 transition issues. I'm just usually doing my work rather than here on-list talking about it. I'd love to do more talking, but of the two, work must come first and often that means work must come only. That's why it's pretty rare for me to show up on a topic, but that means when I do, it's after a good deal of calculation, and any who assume I didn't think it through are usually disappointed. The facts are there and the issue has been on the back burner for a long time during different experiences.

But just as my work is stable, so are my ethics, my adherence to quality and efficient code, and my sticking to economic reality - regardless of trends, friends, popular corporations, and the like. Those don't change. There's no such thing as "I'm doing OK so inefficiency must be OK." Efficiency is mathematically better, therefore it's what I seek myself and for clients and customers, and what I promote unbashfully. Yes, 2 is greater than 1 in all the relevant cases in our universe and current system, and yes that matters! :D

My flag has always been pointed in the same place(s) for these many years - and this approach of doing what's morally right and mathematically sound, regardless of trends, has been successful despite challenges and changes. These are things that don't change. Better methods, the need for innovative approaches and new solutions, efficient and cost-effective code, debugging and fixing without side effects by following proper procedure, teaching quality methods while consulting and teaching for coders and projects at every stage of development or the lack thereof. All these are ethical, but also economically sound. I am unapologetic in advancing these principles; in fact I would feel immoral to do otherwise.

Since I am involved with a lot of projects in different areas and fairly often am required to deal with a portion of the "runoff" from upstream as well as develop solutions for current and future 3rd-party LC needs, I do see the bigger picture and a large portion of the effects on different types of users, and it makes perfect sense for me to pop up and intervene upstream at times if it's important enough, because that would be (again) more efficient than the alternative. And for the sake of others of course. I am a very empathetic and caring person.

But no time for singing or talking - back to quality work and curtains for interlude of encouraging efficiency. I advocate the benefits of reality, but force it on no one, and am truly thankful for all those who are fortunate with the status quo. :)

Apologies if any of this sounds at all snarky, because it's not intended as such, nor aimed personally at Bob or anyone else. Argument often breeds good results. I appreciate all views and don't need to promote my own beliefs beyond the demands of my own ethics/conscience, the logical points of arguments, and the balance of practical benefits. I've done my part for now, until there's another performance change, in which case I promise to fully document. Just a quick reply here to emphasize reliable repeatable observations with public tests, and sound principles of software code. Have a good day everyone and my regards to many of you that I haven't written off-list for a while!

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting

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