I won't comment on all this, because, I am totally biased, and it is
friday after all, but here:
"Look to php zend framework"
that was it for me, lol.
musachy
Ok...I won't talk about the rest because I am obviously biased
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Frode T. Johansen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> - jsp tags
> It was just confusing and time consuming to learn and do alot of
> c:if/c:forEach/c:choose and make it right. In the beginning I just escaped
> into java a lot <% %>
>
> -struts tags
> I still hate tags like the s:select mixed with i18n, ognl, converters and the
> lot.
> 1 mistake, 1 miss, 1 error, 1 type error, and you get NO CLUE WHAT SO EVER
> what is wrong.
>
> -OGNL
> %{}, #{}, ${} ... ????? what eh ... uh. Still don't understand the difference
> and alot of the complex syntax I find all over the place.
> 1 word - crap
> Another word - total undebuggable
>
> Why on earth do we have to do a lot of logic in jsp files with tags and el??
> Gawd I hate that. Then you introduce ognl and struts tags cause el isn't good
> enough. It's a huge mess. Add sitemesh or whatever....
> Boohoo - the web monkey use dreamweaver and can't code. He needs tags boohoo.
> But he does javascript and ajax, or pretty soon is out of work if he doesn't.
>
> -XML
> Xml is a nice tool/format/thingy to save data in. If I ever get a hold of the
> jerk that suggested to create a semi-sub-scripting-language in xml ...
> 1 error, 1 type error, 1 misunderstanding ... you will definitely not get a
> understandable error message if you get one at all....
>
> I think xml was made with the intention that there should be a nice and easy
> tool on top you could play with, and that tool should save to xml, and then
> read from it again... not to hand code the crap with an
> obscure-hello-world-basic-documentation.
>
> -Exceptions
> Struts eats exceptions, and spit them out into something else. I have wasted
> hours in chasing exception I believed had to do with input, jsp, tags, and it
> turned out to be an simple sql exception from layers away. Don't ask me why
> or how.
>
> -SET/GET types on objects
> Have to be the same ... got it. F#¤% obscure error msg - wasted a few days on
> that one.
>
> -Date sucks
> I'm an non-American ... so we got different standards. Cool.
> Ok, wasn't that hard to get yodatime to work, and an converter ... well I got
> help on that one, but I understand there is a lot of fuzz with it and struts
> tags.
>
> -Validation
> Is done by xml - great. Did I just said I hate xml?? No??
> I HATE XML PROGRAMMING - ITS UNDEBUGGABLE.
> How nice how the validator sits in between the view and action object and
> fixes itself.
> What if I want to reuse this code?? What if I want to make logic that is
> based on result from validation, and type of validation error? I don't know
> how. I write my own validator.
> Pointless.
>
> -Converters
> Nice idea ... when it works. If not I make my domain objects to take/return
> strings, and I make my own home/hand -made conversion. Pointless...
>
> -Annotations
> Poison.
> And I have seen baaaaaaad annotation hell done in struts... Say no more.
>
>
> -Debugging.
> What does the request.paramterMap contains of variables form post/get? I have
> a small code for printing that... just pain to use the debugger for it.
> What does the valuestack contains? I don't know...
> What parameters are coming in from the post/get -> parameterinterceptor, and
> what is it trying to do? I don't know...
> Littering the code with System.out doesn't quite work, but you get surprised
> sometimes on how stuff seems to work.
> Debugging just sucks.
> Exceptions generate enormous lists which you got to be quite expert to
> understand.
>
> Coding in struts2 is 5min coding - 1h error hunting. I need to do this and
> that = 2h googling or code fiddling, 5min coding, 1h error hunting.
>
>
> -- Struts2 sucks
> I have spent 6months, and still struggle with it. I got initially expert help
> to boost my knowledge, but there is a long way until I can say Struts2 speeds
> up my development. 98% of my time is spent on google/error-hunting.
> Struts books are ... thank god I piracy copied them first - they suck. Or in
> other words - they didn't give me any useful information.
>
> It's really hard to learn and get used to Struts2. If I quit this job, then
> they got to recruit a struts2 programmer or re-train another which will take
> forever.
>
> I believe Struts2 was made by a Geek trying to get rich. He introduces struts
> as a great framework - which it is in the hand of an expert. He does his job,
> then he quits. Later he is re-hired as an expensive consultant. I for sure
> are not advocating struts2.
>
> But 98% of devs are not experts... prove me wrong.
>
> Struts2 is by no way easy.
> Java web is actually not easy at all if you start from scratch. My background
> is college and php. With php you download a LAMP/WAMP package and you can
> start code very fast with no brains at all. Stupid ppl can start code very
> fast in php. Great doc page too (php.net).
>
> With java you got to setup the right java, eclipse, tomcat, drivers,
> configure them and make them work. JRE? JDK? JavaSE or JavaEE? Java 1.5 or
> Java 5? Sun pages is a mixture of mess.
> You have to follow java web standards in how an web app should be organised
> in folders to be deployed. There is so much that can go wrong - and you just
> give up.
> You have to learn java, jsp, servlet, java xml config, jsp tags in order to
> get up an hello world. Add struts2, struts2 xml, struts2 tags, ognl, etc etc
> Html, css, javascript...
> There are separate books for each of those I just mentioned. Find 10 errors.
>
> If a new guy starting tomorrow in my job - with no struts skillz. Will he
> struggle? Will he get job done? Is my job interested in hiring this kind of
> ppl? My job want stuff produced, not students that remain as students for
> 1-2+ years
>
> I want a simple world. Its 2008.
>
> Look to php zend framework - they got a massive site that pretty much talks
> to an non-expert. Tutorials are pretty step-by-step which covers folder
> layout, config and everything. Its easy to take an example/demo -> unzip and
> run in apache. Then add/change stuff is dead easy.
> Im not saying zend is everything, but I had a crud page up and running dead
> fast with db connection.
>
> Only downside with php is that it's not enterprise mature, and has not got
> rid of easy-to-make-security-holes problems. And it doesn't scale that well
> in medium-large production environment since php introduce great freedoms to
> do spaghetti. And many php devs sucks... But I sure as hell prefer WAMP +
> notepad++ over any java crap. Cause I can get stuff done.
>
> Struts have the benefit of making programming more structured. It's easy to
> make a huge mess in servlet/jsp programming that takes ages to rewrite. It
> separates the coding well. You can much easier have 2 different teams working
> on each part of an app without generating too much noise.
>
>
> Mvh
> Frode T. Johansen
>
>> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
>> Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] På vegne av Ted
>> Husted
>> Sendt: 20. juni 2008 13:43
>> Til: Struts Users Mailing List
>> Emne: [OT] What slows you down?
>>
>> Since it's friday, let me pose a question to the group ...
>>
>> Even with rock-solid frameworks like Apache Struts, it still seems
>> like web application development takes longer than it should. Some
>> frameworks, like Ruby on Rails, speak directly to "time to market"
>> concerns and have been gathering many followers.
>>
>> But why does web application still seem so difficult or so
>> time-consuming? Are there time bandits that still suck days or weeks
>> out of your development schedule? Are there time gremlins that
>> "nickel-and-dime" you every hour of every day? Is there anything more
>> that frameworks like Apache Struts can do to help? Or are just there
>> intractable problems with web development itself?
>>
>> Thoughts? :)
>>
>> -Ted.
>>
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