Do I sound down on the Nor-Vise? I don't mean to, and I'm friends with
Norm- at least I think I am. We visit at shows when he isn't crowded. I've
'contended' with many Know-vise users at the shows, and just about all leave
impressed by what the rope-dub can do. End of story. They take it from
there.
I haven't seen your techniques for the Boulder Midge, so I can't comment.
If you twist the thread with the dubbing, it is not the rope-dub that i do.
DonO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Johnson" <johns...@uvu.edu>
To: <vfb-mail@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [VFB] Rope dubbing peacock- vs other techniques
It's OK with me if he thinks he is the original. I told him this morning
that I began making the Boulder Mt Midge in 1970. I don't know if he will
go for that. He is a bit down on the NorVise. That's OK with me, too. I
only use a NorVise, and I use it for all my tying. Maybe it is not as
convenient because you have to refill the bobbins. That's alright with me.
I am always glad for the down time anyway. And I don't tie very much any
more, so I don't need to worry about changing the thread on the bobbin very
often.
Larry J
"Joyce M Westphal" <joyce...@gmail.com> 11/4/2010 10:10 AM >>>
Larry, I call it the scofield midge..sorry, got the name wrong. You need to
know that Don is convinced he is the first person to use his :rope dub
technique. I sent him a picture of Helen Shaw using the same technique in a
book I have of hers that was copyrighted 1959 and he refused to see that it
was the same technique. He also says that you can't move the noodle of
dubbing up and down the thread when you use the Norvise. I tried to tell
him that I move it up and down all the time, and the reason I really like
spin dubbing is that you DON'T have to tie the dubbing down to use it, thus
avoiding the knot of tied down dubbing, an unsightly bump, with the spin
dubbing. I spin the dubbing, move the tiny tail right up to the area near
the hook bend and spin it down, securing it with the spin itself and making
a small and even, without unsightly bump, dubbing. I'll try and take a
picture of it which will give you a better close up when I get home. JOyce
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Larry Johnson <johns...@uvu.edu> wrote:
I can noodle in the rope-dub style, or spin all my materials with the
tying
thread as the wire.
I made some short gnats (looked like Griffith's Gnats except the hackle
was
brown. not grizzly)
My buddy was fishing on the Boulder Mts, and was the only one catching
anything. An old feller walked around to him and
asked him what he was using. My buddy gave him three or four of these
flies, and one of my cards, and they all started catching fish.
The old guy called me and asked for 4 dozen of them. The next year he
ordered 6 dozen. I met him accidentally on the upper fish creek several
summers
ago. He still had some of those flies, but said he had to stop giving
them
away.
That was 1970 - 72. The fly is now the Boulder Mt. Midge.
size 12 - 16. Peacock,(two or three herls) gold tinsel, and brown hackle,
all "spun" with the working thread as the wire.
At the Sowbug I was showing how to tie it in one minute or less.
Larry J
>>> "Don Ordes" <f...@tribcsp.com> 11/3/2010 1:35 PM >>>
Larry,
I don't advocate that the rope-dub replaces everything. I advocate that
the
rope-dub works with all dubbings and is very fast, and achieves segments
with taper in one pass, and speed, and all of the other things I list on
the
website page. If someone wants to stay with a loop or other method
because
they are comfortable and practiced with it, who am I to say otherwise?
But if someone can't afford the Nor-vise ($340+/-) and the load-em-up
retractable bobbins, they can get the same results just as fast once they
master the RD. My advocacy is that a tier can use one technique for all
dubbings, and have better control of the results with the fingertip
manipulation of the noodle. I didn't show photos yet, but I introduce
many
other materials along with tinsels into the peacock rope, such as cactus
chennilles and ice-dub. I show on the DVD that once the technique is
mastered, a materials pliers can be used to speed up (not replace) the
process even more. DVD#2 will show even more techniques like this.
Syn-seal is one dubbing that is speeded up by using a material clip (it's
so
slick). But shape control is still with the fingertips on a stationary
core.
I have a question for you. When you Nor-Vise your noodle, does the wire
twist with the peacock? A major departure of the rope-dub from other
methods is that the wire does not twist and the roped noodle can therefore
be compressed and shaped for a one-pass tie.
I've seen tons of take-offs of the hackle-with-the-noodle approach, but
they've all been since I originally posted it on the VFB in 2001, and I
had
been showing it in shows 2 years prior to that. I wouldn't bet my life on
it, of course, but I was never able to find any references to 'noodling
the
hackle with the dubbing' before 2000. I watched Lefty rope peacock with
wire in 2004 in Denver, but he didn't add the hackle to the rope.
Last thing I care to get into is a technique-war. I published the
rope-dubbing for free for over 10 years and put it on Byard's site in
2001-
all for free. I wasn't trying to 'take' anyone and everyone had a choice
and I didn't care what that was. No money was at stake. At the shows,
the
extended demos took 20 minutes and covered a dozen or more flies and
sub-techniques. Viewers stated that they could never remember it all, and
so did I have a DVD. A few thought it was Polly's technique, but I showed
them in his book that it is not. So many of them, like Denny Conrad,
asked
for a DVD so they could study and practice all of the techniques at home.
I still don't know if it was the best thing to do, but it's done. The DVD
is out and getting reviewed by the entire industry, with almost all
positive
feed-back. I've had a few un-informed web-posters say negative things
about
it, but they were promptly informed. A few complain about the price, but
they are not purchasers or rope-dubbers, so they have no concept of the
actual value of the methods on the DVD. Al Beatty reviewed it just after
I
gave him one at the FFF clave in W Yellowstone. He loved it and wrote a
very positive review (so he tells me) for Fly Tyer Magazine, and wanted to
buy the DVD. It's FTM's choice when they print it, and I haven't seen it.
I still rope-dub demo for free at the shows. Fortunately, it goes so fast
that viewers cannot retain what they see, and they still get the DVD if
they
can afford it. That's the other thing- the economy. That's why I did a
25%
discount for the next 2 months to make it easier to buy them as gifts.
So I say if you like your Nor-Vise better, by all means stick with it. I
just hope you've done a heads-up comparison of speed vs results vs
versatility.
Very Best Regards,
DonO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Johnson" <johns...@uvu.edu>
To: <vfb-mail@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [VFB] Rope dubbing peacock- Fly of the Week- peacock
Don: I know that you are a great advocate of the rope-dub technique. I
have been doing the same thing you are doing with the peacock and hackle
for
years on my Nor-Vise. I add a strip of narrow tinsel to it. I fish it
like
that, or use it as a body for a caddis or mayfly, etc.
Larry Johnson
Springville, Utah
>>> "Don Ordes" <f...@tribcsp.com> 11/3/2010 11:18 AM >>>
For Rope-dubbers:
Below is just a little of what can be done with rope-dubbing peacock,
hackle, and dubbing.
This is a local pattern called a half-back nymph. I tied the wing-case on
and left it in a post-type position.
I roped the peacock over wire in a 50/50 bare/hackle set-up. When I
wrapped
forward, the hackle started at the
wingcase and finished at the bead. I then pulled the wing forward and
tied
off. The hackling looks different
than a palmered version (see close-up below) and is tooth-proof. (See
portion way below)
Compressed, dense hackle^
This is a size 26 peacock fly, using the fine- but weak- iridescent green
feathers above the peacock
eye. It much stronger when roped with a strong core thread.
Your peacock can be furled so tight that it will furl on itself. I was
never able to get it this tight
twisting the wire with the peacock as the wire would break, as it is too
brittle to twist.
Above is an assortment of approaches. Don't forget that your rope can be
compressed
to make it thicker and this bunches up the hackles, making them denser.
(photo #2)
The hackle can be introduced at any part of the fly, or on the whole fly.
This photo above demonstrates the durability of a wire-cored
peacock/hackle
fly. I took a small saw and chewed off the peacock and hackle all the way
down the the core. The fly still cannot come unravelled- either the
peacock
or the hackle. Actually, I have a couple like this I use as patterns with
copper-colored wire segments showing. I do this saw-demo at all the
shows.
Chuck has gotten a ton of these demo-flies to salvage the hooks.
Go ahead and ask any questions.
DonO
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