Hello, Haven't used windows.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Krister Ekstrom <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 8:37 pm Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing
> > > Finally someone who sees sense! It's always the negativity that sticks around > in the blind community even though sites like Applevis tries to tell about > actual features of the system. It's for the features and functionality i > upgrade not to find things to bitch about. Call me a fan boy, but there's a > reason why i am, and it's because Apples products even with bugs work way, > way, way better than Windblows did on my PCs. > /Krister > > > 23 okt. 2015 kl. 21:29 skrev Shawn Krasniuk <[email protected]>: > > > > So I have a question for the people that think Apple is doing us a huge > > disservice with these bugs? If you feel that way, why are you still using > > their products? If you really do feel that Apple's not taking any > > responsibility for us because we're poor little blind people which I refuse > > to be labelled that way, don't know about anyone else, why not go to a > > different operating system like Android? See, Krister has a point. No > > matter how long we take to beta test products and when the official release > > does come out, people always have to find something else to bitch about. It > > makes me wonder sometimes why I bother beta testing for these spoiled folks > > that think everything should be perfect and go on bashing the people that > > are involved in trying to make the software a success. And then I remember > > that there are people that do appreciate what people like myself are doing. > > So to those people, thanks, and to those other people, sorry to disappoint > > you. > > > > Shawn > > Sent From My White MacBook > > Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk > > Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs > > Skype username: bbstheblindrapper > > Facetime: [email protected] > > > >> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Mário Navarro <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> hi. > >> very well said. > >> there are people in this group who needed to hear your words. > >> what it can be good for them, it may not be for others. > >> and for me it is not. > >> Apple has to take more responsibility for the blind community in this > >> world. > >> some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor. > >> we do not need favors, but rights. > >> and we must fight for our rights. > >> and this is not just for Apple, but for all companies that do not respect > >> us as they should > >> we always do our part in cooperation in solving the problems, but the > >> apple never treat us with the same rights that deals with sighted people. > >> > >> apple has the ability to solve the problems of the sighted, why it also > >> does not solve the problems of the blind with the same capacity? > >> blind are those who do not want to see ... > >> > >> and I'm blind, but I want to see! > >> and always want the best for me! > >> and if I am an apple user, > >> I'm also a client. > >> and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect. > >> and respect for me, is to have equal rights. > >> thank you for your words. > >> cheers. > >> > >> as 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu: > >>> I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a > >>> lot of products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in > >>> the world, due to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. > >>> I'm not going to cut them any slack because they have a lot of products > >>> since they also have a lot of resources. If they have too many products, > >>> and they can't maintain a certain level of quality across those products > >>> then they need to make some changes in priorities and business decisions. > >>> Note, I'm not saying Apple has a quality issue or that they don't care > >>> about accessibility.. I'm just saying that the argument that they have a > >>> lot of products is bogus. > >>> > >>> I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but > >>> they certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time I > >>> get a call when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability to > >>> use my iPhone the way I've been using it for years. I can also tell you > >>> that I process a lot fewer emails now that I have to recycle VoiceOver > >>> every time I reply to an email message. I use an iPhone for both my > >>> personal use and for my job, and these bugs are definitely impacting my > >>> ability to be productive at work. > >>> > >>> I'm sorry the fact that I'm a lot less reluctant to recommend an iPhone > >>> to a blind user, at least not without telling them the bugs I'm running > >>> into on IOS 9 bothers you, but I'd hate to have a blind person get an > >>> iPhone and then run into the problems I'm seeing. If they don't use the > >>> phone the way I do, or they don't see these bugs themselves, then that's > >>> great, but at least they'll be making an informed decision. My real point > >>> in saying that though, was that people's impression of IOS 8 versus IOS 9 > >>> has a lot to do with how they use their phone. I was not an IOS 8 basher, > >>> but I'm definitely running into a lot more issue that impact me and how I > >>> use my phone on IOS 9 then I did on IOS 8. For me, the quality of IOS 9 > >>> has definitely deteriorated, so it isn't true for everyone that IOS 8 was > >>> this unmitigated disaster and IOS 9 has solved all of those issues. > >>> > >>> On 10/23/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Miller wrote: > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> I think everyone's missing the point here. Apple's accessibility team is > >>>> not just focusing on VoiceOver, they're focusing on an entire set of > >>>> features, covering different disabilities. Furthermore, they've now got > >>>> 4 operating systems to focus on, rather than 2. > >>>> None of the bugs mentioned in this thread absolutely prevent anyone from > >>>> using iOS, so let Apple fix them when they get to them on what is > >>>> probably a gigantic list of things to fix, and not just for VoiceOver > >>>> users. > >>>> Saying you can't recommend the iPhone any more because of a few minor > >>>> annoyances seems a bit far fetched in my opinion. > >>>> > >>>>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:37 AM, Rajmund <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hello, > >>>>> Yes, there are some worrying bugs, let's be fair. > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:30 pm > >>>>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never > >>>>>> regretted upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose > >>>>>> VoiceOver when I answer a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver > >>>>>> freezes > >>>>>> when I reply to an email message. I'm still getting by with the work > >>>>>> arounds I've uncovered so far, but I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9 > >>>>>> than I was with IOS 8, and I can't recommend the iPhone anymore to > >>>>>> another blind person, at least not without letting them know about > >>>>>> these > >>>>>> issues. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: > >>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>> I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor > >>>>>>> well spokenly than me. > >>>>>>> Thanks for that. > >>>>>>> /Krister > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 18:59 skrev Wayne Merritt <[email protected]>: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Everyone, > >>>>>>>> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X > >>>>>>>> last > >>>>>>>> year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a > >>>>>>>> number > >>>>>>>> were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone > >>>>>>>> across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with > >>>>>>>> iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the > >>>>>>>> buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that > >>>>>>>> are > >>>>>>>> bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have > >>>>>>>> been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with. > >>>>>>>> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I > >>>>>>>> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the > >>>>>>>> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought, > >>>>>>>> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it > >>>>>>>> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one > >>>>>>>> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen > >>>>>>>> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream > >>>>>>>> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited > >>>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>> the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the > >>>>>>>> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Wayne > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple > >>>>>>>>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that > >>>>>>>>> will > >>>>>>>>> be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your > >>>>>>>>> target > >>>>>>>>> isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to > >>>>>>>>> do > >>>>>>>>> something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on > >>>>>>>>> this list or in any community then you'd never do anything. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't > >>>>>>>>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS > >>>>>>>>> 9, > >>>>>>>>> answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is > >>>>>>>>> so > >>>>>>>>> bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to > >>>>>>>>> depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this > >>>>>>>>> list > >>>>>>>>> about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all > >>>>>>>>> don't use > >>>>>>>>> our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another > >>>>>>>>> user > >>>>>>>>> because they're more impacted by a bug than we are. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways > >>>>>>>>> to go > >>>>>>>>> before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom > >>>>>>>>> Scientific has > >>>>>>>>> gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't see the fan > >>>>>>>>> boyism > >>>>>>>>> for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness community. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>>>>> Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what > >>>>>>>>>> we as > >>>>>>>>>> beta testers might say? For every release there has been and > >>>>>>>>>> probably will > >>>>>>>>>> be a tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has > >>>>>>>>>> been > >>>>>>>>>> complained about would be fixed to perfection they complain about > >>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> fixes. Either it's too bloody late or there's too little or too > >>>>>>>>>> much of > >>>>>>>>>> everything. I'm the type of guy who upgrades every app and every > >>>>>>>>>> Os to see > >>>>>>>>>> what features are there and if there are bugs, well shrug, nobody's > >>>>>>>>>> perfect. As i said before i think it's strange that Apple gets so > >>>>>>>>>> many > >>>>>>>>>> complaints about things that aren't even their fault like apps > >>>>>>>>>> that are > >>>>>>>>>> not upgraded and so don't work or such. In my time on Windows > >>>>>>>>>> there wasn't > >>>>>>>>>> anything like this complaining. Nobody ever said that "freedom > >>>>>>>>>> scientific > >>>>>>>>>> or GW Micro or Dolphin has abandoned us and don't give a fig about > >>>>>>>>>> us". So > >>>>>>>>>> are there bugs? Of course there probably are, no big chunk of code > >>>>>>>>>> is ever > >>>>>>>>>> bug free. Should we report them? > >>>>>>>>> Yes politely and with enough info to make the folks aware of the > >>>>>>>>> problem > >>>>>>>>> but i wonder if that's the case when i hear the tone here and on > >>>>>>>>> other > >>>>>>>>> forums where blind folks and Apple are the common denominator. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> /Krister > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 08:33 skrev M. Taylor <[email protected]>: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I just want to let those of you, who are not beta testers, know, > >>>>>>>>>>> is that > >>>>>>>>>>> with any company, be it Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc, reporting a > >>>>>>>>>>> problem, > >>>>>>>>>>> regardless of how important it may appear to be to the tester, is > >>>>>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>>>>> always > >>>>>>>>>>> addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> It has been my experience that the larger an organization > >>>>>>>>>>> becomes, the > >>>>>>>>>>> less > >>>>>>>>>>> responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, > >>>>>>>>>>> it may > >>>>>>>>>>> appear to be to external testers. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware > >>>>>>>>>>> of the > >>>>>>>>>>> problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in > >>>>>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>>>>> future > >>>>>>>>>>> release. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, > >>>>>>>>>>> when > >>>>>>>>>>> bugs > >>>>>>>>>>> get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why > >>>>>>>>>>> they > >>>>>>>>>>> were > >>>>>>>>>>> resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are > >>>>>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>>>>> testing > >>>>>>>>>>> well enough. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my > >>>>>>>>>>> way of > >>>>>>>>>>> showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now > >>>>>>>>>>> take for > >>>>>>>>>>> granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal > >>>>>>>>>>> liberties, > >>>>>>>>>>> talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers, > >>>>>>>>>>> refreshable > >>>>>>>>>>> Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind > >>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>> low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which > >>>>>>>>>>> I may, > >>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>> some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try > >>>>>>>>>>> to keep > >>>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>> mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most > >>>>>>>>>>> likely be > >>>>>>>>>>> much higher. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Most Sincerely, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Mark > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the > >>>>>>>>>>> VIPhone > >>>>>>>>>>> list. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this > >>>>>>>>>>> list, or > >>>>>>>>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact > >>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list > >>>>>>>>>>> itself. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > >>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups > >>>>>>>>>>> "VIPhone" group. > >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > >>>>>>>>>>> send an > >>>>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> Christopher (CJ) > >>>>>>>>> chaltain at Gmail > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the > >>>>>>>>> VIPhone list. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this > >>>>>>>>> list, or if > >>>>>>>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the > >>>>>>>>> owners or > >>>>>>>>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > >>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at > >>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > >>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>>>>>>> Groups > >>>>>>>>> "VIPhone" group. > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > >>>>>>>>> send an > >>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter at: > >>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/wcmerritt > >>>>>>>> My website: > >>>>>>>> www.wayneism.com > >>>>>>>> My book list: > >>>>>>>> www.wayneism.com/books.php > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the > >>>>>>>> VIPhone list. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this > >>>>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please > >>>>>>>> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the > >>>>>>>> list itself. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > >>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at > >>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > >>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>>>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Christopher (CJ) > >>>>>> chaltain at Gmail > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone > >>>>>> list. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, > >>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact > >>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list > >>>>>> itself. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at > >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > >>>>>> --- > >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > >>>>>> an email to [email protected]. > >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent from a Braille Sense > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone > >>>>> list. > >>>>> > >>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, > >>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact > >>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list > >>>>> itself. > >>>>> > >>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at > >>>>> http://www.mail-archive..com/[email protected]/. > >>>>> --- > >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > >>>>> an email to [email protected]. > >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list. > >> > >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or > >> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the > >> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > >> > >> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > >> [email protected] > >> > >> The archives for this list can be searched at > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > >> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> Groups "VIPhone" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > >> email to [email protected]. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > -- > > The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list. > > > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners > > or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > > > Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > > [email protected] > > > > The archives for this list can be searched at > > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > > --- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "VIPhone" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to [email protected]. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > [email protected] > > The archives for this list can be searched at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Sent from a Braille Sense -- The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at [email protected] The archives for this list can be searched at http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
