I agree with the last 2 posters. To those people that are complaining because things don’t work the way *you* think they should work, don’t let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya. > On Oct 23, 2015, at 2:36 PM, Krister Ekstrom <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Finally someone who sees sense! It’s always the negativity that sticks around > in the blind community even though sites like Applevis tries to tell about > actual features of the system. It’s for the features and functionality i > upgrade not to find things to bitch about. Call me a fan boy, but there’s a > reason why i am, and it’s because Apples products even with bugs work way, > way, way better than Windblows did on my PCs. > /Krister > >> 23 okt. 2015 kl. 21:29 skrev Shawn Krasniuk <[email protected]>: >> >> So I have a question for the people that think Apple is doing us a huge >> disservice with these bugs? If you feel that way, why are you still using >> their products? If you really do feel that Apple's not taking any >> responsibility for us because we're poor little blind people which I refuse >> to be labelled that way, don't know about anyone else, why not go to a >> different operating system like Android? See, Krister has a point. No matter >> how long we take to beta test products and when the official release does >> come out, people always have to find something else to bitch about. It makes >> me wonder sometimes why I bother beta testing for these spoiled folks that >> think everything should be perfect and go on bashing the people that are >> involved in trying to make the software a success. And then I remember that >> there are people that do appreciate what people like myself are doing. So to >> those people, thanks, and to those other people, sorry to disappoint you. >> >> Shawn >> Sent From My White MacBook >> Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk >> Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs >> Skype username: bbstheblindrapper >> Facetime: [email protected] >> >>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Mário Navarro <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> hi. >>> very well said. >>> there are people in this group who needed to hear your words. >>> what it can be good for them, it may not be for others. >>> and for me it is not. >>> Apple has to take more responsibility for the blind community in this world. >>> some people think that what Apple does for us, it's a favor. >>> we do not need favors, but rights. >>> and we must fight for our rights. >>> and this is not just for Apple, but for all companies that do not respect >>> us as they should >>> we always do our part in cooperation in solving the problems, but the >>> apple never treat us with the same rights that deals with sighted people. >>> >>> apple has the ability to solve the problems of the sighted, why it also >>> does not solve the problems of the blind with the same capacity? >>> blind are those who do not want to see ... >>> >>> and I'm blind, but I want to see! >>> and always want the best for me! >>> and if I am an apple user, >>> I'm also a client. >>> and if I am a client, I have to be treated with respect. >>> and respect for me, is to have equal rights. >>> thank you for your words. >>> cheers. >>> >>> Às 13:37 de 23/10/2015, Christopher Chaltain escreveu: >>>> I can assure you, I'm not missing the point. The fact that Apple has a lot >>>> of products is irrelevant. Apple is also the wealthiest company in the >>>> world, due to the fact that they have a lot of successful products. I'm >>>> not going to cut them any slack because they have a lot of products since >>>> they also have a lot of resources. If they have too many products, and >>>> they can't maintain a certain level of quality across those products then >>>> they need to make some changes in priorities and business decisions. Note, >>>> I'm not saying Apple has a quality issue or that they don't care about >>>> accessibility. I'm just saying that the argument that they have a lot of >>>> products is bogus. >>>> >>>> I can't help it if you think the issues I've reported are trivial, but >>>> they certainly are not to me. Having to hard reset my phone every time I >>>> get a call when my headset is attached certainly impacts my ability to use >>>> my iPhone the way I've been using it for years. I can also tell you that I >>>> process a lot fewer emails now that I have to recycle VoiceOver every time >>>> I reply to an email message. I use an iPhone for both my personal use and >>>> for my job, and these bugs are definitely impacting my ability to be >>>> productive at work. >>>> >>>> I'm sorry the fact that I'm a lot less reluctant to recommend an iPhone to >>>> a blind user, at least not without telling them the bugs I'm running into >>>> on IOS 9 bothers you, but I'd hate to have a blind person get an iPhone >>>> and then run into the problems I'm seeing. If they don't use the phone the >>>> way I do, or they don't see these bugs themselves, then that's great, but >>>> at least they'll be making an informed decision. My real point in saying >>>> that though, was that people's impression of IOS 8 versus IOS 9 has a lot >>>> to do with how they use their phone. I was not an IOS 8 basher, but I'm >>>> definitely running into a lot more issue that impact me and how I use my >>>> phone on IOS 9 then I did on IOS 8. For me, the quality of IOS 9 has >>>> definitely deteriorated, so it isn't true for everyone that IOS 8 was this >>>> unmitigated disaster and IOS 9 has solved all of those issues. >>>> >>>> On 10/23/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Miller wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I think everyone’s missing the point here. Apple’s accessibility team is >>>>> not just focusing on VoiceOver, they’re focusing on an entire set of >>>>> features, covering different disabilities. Furthermore, they’ve now got 4 >>>>> operating systems to focus on, rather than 2. >>>>> None of the bugs mentioned in this thread absolutely prevent anyone from >>>>> using iOS, so let Apple fix them when they get to them on what is >>>>> probably a gigantic list of things to fix, and not just for VoiceOver >>>>> users. >>>>> Saying you can’t recommend the iPhone any more because of a few minor >>>>> annoyances seems a bit far fetched in my opinion. >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 23, 2015, at 6:37 AM, Rajmund <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> Yes, there are some worrying bugs, let's be fair. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Date: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:30 pm >>>>>> Subject: Re: A Quick Word On Beta Testing >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For me, I didn't find any bugs in IOS 8 I couldn't live with. I never >>>>>>> regretted upgrading to IOS 8. IOS 9 is a different story. I lose >>>>>>> VoiceOver when I answer a call with my headset on, and VoiceOver freezes >>>>>>> when I reply to an email message. I'm still getting by with the work >>>>>>> arounds I've uncovered so far, but I'm much less satisfied with IOS 9 >>>>>>> than I was with IOS 8, and I can't recommend the iPhone anymore to >>>>>>> another blind person, at least not without letting them know about these >>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10/22/2015 12:43 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> I guess you just said what i was trying to say earlier on only mor >>>>>>>> well spokenly than me. >>>>>>>> Thanks for that. >>>>>>>> /Krister >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 18:59 skrev Wayne Merritt <[email protected]>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Everyone, >>>>>>>>> Think for a moment how many bugs and issues there were in iOS 8.X last >>>>>>>>> year. A number of them were directly related to VoiceOver and a number >>>>>>>>> were in the mainstream. Apple got so much ill will from everyone >>>>>>>>> across the board for putting out things that didn't work. Now, with >>>>>>>>> iOS 9, I haven't seen nearly as much outcry among the masses for the >>>>>>>>> buggy and half-baked job Apple did with iOS. There are things that are >>>>>>>>> bugs for some and not for others, but now that the focus issues have >>>>>>>>> been fixed, I haven't seen any other bugs that I can't live with. >>>>>>>>> Okay, so the phone does not automatically announce the time when I >>>>>>>>> press the home or power button; I can still touch the part of the >>>>>>>>> screen that has the time and check it that way. Or, here's a thought, >>>>>>>>> look at another clock or watch if I really want to know what time it >>>>>>>>> is. And, for those thinking that Apple has sooo many bugs and no one >>>>>>>>> else does, widen your scope and look at Windows, JAWS, any screen >>>>>>>>> reader or assistive software, or any other widely used mainstream >>>>>>>>> software. All major releases has bugs to some degree. If we waited for >>>>>>>>> the software companies to fix the bugs before they released the >>>>>>>>> software, we would be waiting forever for that next big thing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Wayne >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 10/22/15, Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Of course you should report bugs. They won't be addressed if Apple >>>>>>>>>> doesn't know about them. They may still not be addressed, but that >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>> be a conscious decision made by Apple and their developers. Your >>>>>>>>>> target >>>>>>>>>> isn't other users but the Apple developers. If you weren't going to >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> something because of a negative reaction by a minority of members on >>>>>>>>>> this list or in any community then you'd never do anything. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You may be able to shrug off bugs when you upgrade, but that doesn't >>>>>>>>>> mean everyone can. I did that with IOS up through 8.4, but with IOS >>>>>>>>>> 9, >>>>>>>>>> answering phone calls with a headset on and responding to emails is >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> bad it makes the phone virtually unusable for two tasks I've come to >>>>>>>>>> depend on my iPhone for. IMHO, there's too much judgment on this list >>>>>>>>>> about the impacts certain bugs have on different users. We all don't >>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>> our phones the same way, so we shouldn't pass judgment on another >>>>>>>>>> user >>>>>>>>>> because they're more impacted by a bug than we are. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't get the reference to Windows. Apple still has a long ways to >>>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>>> before it gets as much criticism as Microsoft and Freedom Scientific >>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>>> gotten from their blind users. Furthermore, I don't see the fan >>>>>>>>>> boyism >>>>>>>>>> for Microsoft that I see for Apple in the blindness community. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 10/22/2015 03:09 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>> Very well said Mark, but what i ask myself is does it matter what >>>>>>>>>>> we as >>>>>>>>>>> beta testers might say? For every release there has been and >>>>>>>>>>> probably will >>>>>>>>>>> be a tsunami of negativity and complaining and even if what has been >>>>>>>>>>> complained about would be fixed to perfection they complain about >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> fixes. Either it's too bloody late or there's too little or too >>>>>>>>>>> much of >>>>>>>>>>> everything. I'm the type of guy who upgrades every app and every Os >>>>>>>>>>> to see >>>>>>>>>>> what features are there and if there are bugs, well shrug, nobody's >>>>>>>>>>> perfect. As i said before i think it's strange that Apple gets so >>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>> complaints about things that aren't even their fault like apps that >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> not upgraded and so don't work or such. In my time on Windows there >>>>>>>>>>> wasn't >>>>>>>>>>> anything like this complaining. Nobody ever said that "freedom >>>>>>>>>>> scientific >>>>>>>>>>> or GW Micro or Dolphin has abandoned us and don't give a fig about >>>>>>>>>>> us". So >>>>>>>>>>> are there bugs? Of course there probably are, no big chunk of code >>>>>>>>>>> is ever >>>>>>>>>>> bug free. Should we report them? >>>>>>>>>> Yes politely and with enough info to make the folks aware of the >>>>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>>>> but i wonder if that's the case when i hear the tone here and on >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> forums where blind folks and Apple are the common denominator. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> /Krister >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 22 okt. 2015 kl. 08:33 skrev M. Taylor <[email protected]>: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I just want to let those of you, who are not beta testers, know, >>>>>>>>>>>> is that >>>>>>>>>>>> with any company, be it Apple, Microsoft, Sony, etc, reporting a >>>>>>>>>>>> problem, >>>>>>>>>>>> regardless of how important it may appear to be to the tester, is >>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>> addressed immediately or, in some cases, ever. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It has been my experience that the larger an organization becomes, >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>>>>> responsive, in terms of addressing non-mission critical problems, >>>>>>>>>>>> it may >>>>>>>>>>>> appear to be to external testers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> All we, as beta testers can do, is to make the organization aware >>>>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>>>> problems and hope that it will manage to address said problems in a >>>>>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>>>>> release. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In my opinion, beta testing is a somewhat thankless job because, >>>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>> bugs >>>>>>>>>>>> get squashed, no one pays attention to them or cares how or why >>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>>>> resolved and when bugs remain, people think that the testers are >>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> testing >>>>>>>>>>>> well enough. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To me, beta testing, not just for Apple but for any company is my >>>>>>>>>>>> way of >>>>>>>>>>>> showing appreciation for those things in life which I may now take >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> granted; things like clean drinking water, electricity, personal >>>>>>>>>>>> liberties, >>>>>>>>>>>> talking ATM machines, audio-described movies, screen readers, >>>>>>>>>>>> refreshable >>>>>>>>>>>> Braille displays, smart phones, hearing aids, medicine, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Beta testing is also my way of showing my respect for those blind >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> low-vision pioneers who came before me and it is a means by which >>>>>>>>>>>> I may, >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> some small part, leave a legacy to those who will follow. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, when a product is released with a number of bugs, please try >>>>>>>>>>>> to keep >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> mind that were it not for beta testers, that number would most >>>>>>>>>>>> likely be >>>>>>>>>>>> much higher. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Most Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the >>>>>>>>>>>> VIPhone >>>>>>>>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>>>> list, or >>>>>>>>>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>> "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Christopher (CJ) >>>>>>>>>> chaltain at Gmail >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the >>>>>>>>>> VIPhone list. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>>>>>> list, or if >>>>>>>>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>>>>>>> owners or >>>>>>>>>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at >>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>> "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter at: >>>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/wcmerritt >>>>>>>>> My website: >>>>>>>>> www.wayneism.com >>>>>>>>> My book list: >>>>>>>>> www.wayneism.com/books.php >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone >>>>>>>>> list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at >>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Christopher (CJ) >>>>>>> chaltain at Gmail >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone >>>>>>> list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from a Braille Sense >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone >>>>>> list. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list. >>> >>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if >>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners >>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>> >>> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >>> [email protected] >>> >>> The archives for this list can be searched at >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list. >> >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if >> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or >> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >> >> Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >> [email protected] >> >> The archives for this list can be searched at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "VIPhone" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > [email protected] > > The archives for this list can be searched at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
-- The following information is important for all members of the VIPhone list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your VIPhone list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at [email protected] The archives for this list can be searched at http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
