Pablo and I guess Mario, I am only sending one more reply to this, after that any threads of that nature become subject to my delete key. I am not defending Apple at all and totally agree that they need to fix bugs and maintain the gold standard they set in accessibility. In fact, they have to maintain it not only in accessibility but also in general. Steve Jobbs used to say "It just works" when he introduced some new device or feature and that is what people expect from Apple. I couldn't care less about the latest fancy features Android may have because there are other things I may not like about Android. I want a platform that is rock solid, secure, super accessible and which offers a good feature set. Where you I think do not understand me is in what I am saying about posting these rants about how Apple needs to get their act together on this list. We are all blind or visually impaired on this list and want iOS to be perfect. If I met with a group of 25 blind iOS users in person once a month and each time I complained about how Apple needs to fix their bugs that is not productive. I need to tell Apple Accessibility, you need to tell Apple Accessibility and every one of the 25 guys I am meeting in my hypothetical monthly get-together needs to tell Apple Accessibility. For this group this means we all need to email and/or call Apple Accessibility and tell them. Telling each other doesn't help, it's like if you have an arguement with a friend. You resolve it by having an open and honest discussion with your friend and not by telling another friend. Now, if I discover a bug and want to verify that it's a bug everybody experiences then I can of course post it to the list and get people's feedback, but I post what I discovered and describe the behaviour, I don't necessarily include a rant about how Apple should have never let this bug happen in the first place. Maybe you want feedback from a friend about how you should approach your other friend with whom you have the arguement and then it's OK to discuss it with your other friend, but you still need to go and have it out with the friend with whom you have the arguement. In this case the friend with whom you have the arguement is Apple, this list is your friend with whom you can talk about how you should handle it. If you want to tell the sighted world at large about Apple Accessibility and how Apple needs to do more than go right ahead, tell everybody at the bus stop or at the line up at the checkout counter or post it to the Google Community of Rob's Today in iOS Podcast, but complaining continuously on the Viphone list is like preaching to the choir, it doesn't help and it just makes most people want to whip you with Apple Earpods and Lightning cables *that was supposed to be a joke*. Anyhow, it just gets old, here we all know and experience the bugs and challenges with accessibility, we all want it to be better but it will only get better if Apple gets more and more feedback and good feedback which means good and detailed bug reports and not rants about how this should just all be fixed. Yes, sometimes it seems inexcusable how some bugs persist throughout a beta cycle or even multiple major releases of iOS. But to say Apple is not fixing bugs or that they are not improving accessibility with new features is garbage, I'm sure the team at Apple that is in charge of Voiceover and accessibility tries very hard and that they do all they can, but Apple is not just that team and I'm sure they are sometimes just as frustrated as you are that a new version gets released with new bugs or old bugs which haven't been fixed.
Regards, Sieghard From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Pablo C. Morales Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 12:15 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Apple has a serious problem with software quality | ZDNet Hi Sieghard I think that you haven’t read the whole threads in the last days. I said so because you are replying this email without knowledge of why I am posting this email. I recommend that you check about it in the last 2 days. Yes it is an IOs list, however it doesn’t mean that we cannot say that apple is doing a bad job regarding software updates, and specially fixing the problems that their software team are creating each IOs update. Mario is right when he says that apple has to be more responsible with their customers. I said something similar months ago, when I complained about the usability of our phones and the time that apple takes to fix bugs, and sometimes they just ignore the bugs and release new IOs, with more bugs. Obviously Sieghard your attitude shows a strong position in favor of apple, and you feel like ignoring what is wrong. Your attitude is no helping the blind community, your attitude defending apple when they are no fixing the bugs is going to fix apple in the future. Your attitude is hurting the accessibility and hurting apple too. You are defending a company that in the past had a very good attitude with the software and with the bugs unrepaired of software. You are defending them when they are no doing a good job. I posted those links, no talking about android or blackberry, those web pages are talking about the same point that we have been talking in the list these las 2 days. Bugs, and bad quality of software. The android developers are going to fix those problems? No, you know that they are not going to do it. Apple is going to fix this problems? Obviously they are no putting a lot of interest fixing these problems, they are more concern in the releases of new fancy IOs, than fixing the bugs of those new fancy releases. Who is going to fix these problems? We, their customers. We need to call, we need to write, we need to do a lot of noise because we are paying their checks with the products that we are buying. It is how market works. In the last emails I have said, several times that liking or not. Voiceover is the best choice for us. I am not saying that android accessibility is better, no I didn’t said that. Read those emails and you will see what is my position about it. I am not saying that Mario and many others are wrong, no. They are right, apple is no doing a good job with the software. But it doesn’t mean that I am saying that apple bs, as you said. I don’t use that vocabulary, I am not accustomed to do that. However, saying that apple is great, and keeping your attitude of just highlight the good things, are not going to improve the quality of apple software. Calling, writing, making noise is what is going to improve the software quality. I rather to write, to call, to make noise. I rather to complain to apple about their low quality. Because I am living in The United States where I have the right to complain about this kind of things when I paid for that. I am using my right. More over this right improves quality and it is what apple and customer’s needs. No just saying that whoever said something that you don’t like about apple, are wrong. From: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sieghard Weitzel Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 10:12 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> Subject: RE: Apple has a serious problem with software quality | ZDNet Pablo and others, You can find bunches of articles on anything on Google. I could send you 50 links of articles which praise Apple and iOS to high heaven, then I can send you just as many that are the complete opposite and the same applies to Google/Android. I can probably even find you some die-hard Blackberry fans who are posting that Blackberry is the best ever and both iOS and Android are complete BS. I don't think we have to get into what is better or if iOS is any good or anything like that. The point is that this is an iOS list, we are all here because we use iOS devices due to their very good level of accessibility. We all know there are bugs and that there always will be bugs. We all know that Apple with iOS, Mac OS, TVOS and Watch OS don't have an exclusive on them, Android has them, Windows has them, Google Chrome has them and other software like Jaws, Office, Adobe, Firefox they all have bugs as do all apps. This list is and should be about helping each other, answering each others questions and posting articles about some particularly cool app or accessory. The list is also about posting about bugs you discover or think you have discovered, sure you can point out your thoughts that Apple should do more or that Apple really should have fixed this or that bug already or during the Beta cycle, but I think these rants which then result in endless one-liners about how somebody is right or wrong or should go and get an Android phone if they aren't happy with the iPhone are just getting old, they usually just rephrase what has already been said a dozen times over. As you know very well yourself Android isn't all it's made out to be and while you say you totally would have an Android phone if you could see there are also thousands of ex-Android users who can see and who love their new iPhones after making the switch. Then of course there are those "happy" Android users who bought Samsung's new flagship Note 7 only to be surprised when the smoke hit the fan, if this had happened to the iPhone 7 Apple would have been crucified and in a much worse way than Samsung. Headlines like your ssubject "Apple has a serious problem with software quality" are typical link bait, you can go on Google and find lots of examples for either one, here is just one example that swings the other way from Forbes: "New Android Malware Strikes At Millions Of Smartphones". Sometimes you even find something that is more objective like the summary of this comparison article: iOS 10 vs Android 7.0 Nougat: Conclusion. In many respects, Android and iOS are very similar. They're both slick, refined, competent mobile operating systems. Each has its advantages and unique features, as well as frustrations and weaknesses. Regards, Sieghard From: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Pablo C. Morales Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 4:42 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com<mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> Subject: Apple has a serious problem with software quality | ZDNet Look at this article, you can find bunches of them on google. http://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-has-a-serious-problem-with-software-quality/ -- The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. 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