Go, Josh, go with that guitar. Probably you eventually would like getting BARD on your phone.
Best regards, Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Hendrickson Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2019 11:48 AM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Theme Question: In What Ways Have Apple Products, or Their Related Third-Party Apps, Increased Your Level of Personal Independence? Lift and Uber isn't available in my area, so when I get my new iPhone, I won't be using those apps. My iPhone is going to be a tool that I use to make phone calls and some other things. It is because of apps like seeing AI that first made me want to switch from a flip phone to the iPhone. However, my iPhone isn't going to be some major device that changed my life. I'd say something that truly changed my life is my martin D18 guitar. I have improved very much in my ability to play the guitar now that I have such a very fine instrument. As for reading braille, I don't read much braille since so many books are available in audio format. However, I can read braille just fine. If I picked up a braille book, I'd have no trouble reading it. On 5/26/19, Anthony Vece <ajv...@gmail.com> wrote: > There are all types of people out there. > People who are ignorant. > I tried to train some people in braille and they didn’t even want to > know about it. > They said they had their text-to-speech and that was all they needed. > I’ve been using braille since I was around five or six years old and I > thoroughly enjoy it and I still use it today after 60 years. > God bless Anthony > > Sent from my Verizon iPhone XR!!! > >> On May 26, 2019, at 10:44 AM, Devin Prater <r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Thanks so much. Braille, to me, is reading. How can one call such an >> important skill dead? >> >> Devin Prater >> Assistive Technology Instructor >> >> From: viphone@googlegroups.com on behalf of Anthony Vece >> <ajv...@gmail.com> >> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2019 9:34 AM >> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> Subject: Re: Theme Question: In What Ways Have Apple Products, or >> Their Related Third-Party Apps, Increased Your Level of Personal >> Independence? >> >> Hi Devon; >> I am 66 years old and, I am so happy that a lot of young people are >> using braille for today. >> I never want to see braille as a loss start. >> Keep it up. >> God bless >> Anthony >> >> Sent from my Verizon iPhone XR!!! >> >> > On May 25, 2019, at 11:40 PM, Devin Prater <r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> > My journey with Apple started in like 2011, when I got my first >> > iPod. I was in 9th grade, just learning about technology, and >> > excited about all that the iPod could do, even back then. I >> > remember getting an iTunes gift card, and buying books from the >> > iBooks store, and actually read one during a weekend at my Aunt's house. >> > Years after that, I got an iPhone 7, the year that the 8 and 10 >> > came out, because I just couldn't live with the Google Pixel >> > anymore. Just like with Linux, I couldn't live with the dirty >> > implementation of what Google calls "accessibility" on Android. So, >> > I gave that Pixel back to Verizon, and got the iPhone 7. >> > >> > For me, I judge an operating system accessibility on its braille >> > support. You know Google don't give a crap because BrailleBack >> > isn't even *included* in the accessibility suite in Android, you >> > have to get it from the play store. No Android user can justify >> > this, except to say that some users don't need braille and its >> > somehow good that Google not "clutter" up their phone with >> > accessibility, lol. Linux has a good enough braille system, I >> > suppose, but like everything else regarding accessibility, it can >> > be not even packaged for your distribution of choice, or not >> > enabled, or not set up correctly, or have its system-d service >> > disabled, or have its BRLAPI group not set up with the one you're >> > assigned to, and so much more. Yeah, Linux is made of so many small >> > parts, and its an absolute pain to get all of them working nicely together. >> > >> > iOS, however, is just about the gold standard for braille access. >> > Its not perfect, of course, since you never see formatting symbols >> > in braille, and sometimes when you type, braille restarts itself, >> > but my goodness for the most part, it works well. I'm not saying >> > Apple doesn't have to keep improving, but Google and Linux don't >> > give a crap, and Microsoft is still fumbling a little with braille, >> > but iOS 13 will be a great time for Apple to show that they still >> > care about their blind users, and braille users in particular, by >> > fixing bugs and adding features, like showing formatting if the >> > user wants, like italics, bold, and such when reading books and >> > articles, or allowing the user to set up cells which, if they're >> > not working anymore, should be skipped in showing braille, so that the >> > user doesn't get unreliable information. >> > Yes, both of these have been suggested to Apple by me. >> > >> > So, I've gone through just about all operating systems. Apple is >> > ruggid and reliable, but doesn't change much. Microsoft is shiny & >> > interesting, but can be rather flimsy sometimes. Linux is large and >> > hard to wield, and easy to break. Android is easily customized, but >> > its looseness also allows in malware. Chromebook doesn't really do >> > much, but that's great for education, and ironically, its braille >> > support is what Android should have, when you plug in a braille >> > display, Chromevox automatically comes on, if its not already on, >> > and drives the display. But like every other screen reader, for some >> > reason, it doesn't show formatting! >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> On May 25, 2019, at 9:18 PM, Mary Jo Partyka <choir...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> Since I started receiving Apple products in 2011, I have become >> >> more independent and knowledgeable about what they do. I use my >> >> phone with the screen only most of the time and like the idea of >> >> being able to text to people like everyone else. I enjoy exploring >> >> apps and the calendar is a godsend because my events appear on my >> >> phone and my computer at the same time. I have broadened my music >> >> repertoire with the Apple music service and like the idea that >> >> news items are at our disposal the same time other people receive >> >> them. Also trying to acquaint myself with apps that use GPS. >> >> >> >> >> >> Mary Jo Partyka >> >> choir...@gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >>> On May 25, 2019, at 8:28 PM, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hello Gordon, >> >>> >> >>> While I appreciate your sentiment, because I do not want your >> >>> post to discourage others from contributing to this thread, I >> >>> will offer a brief rebuttal to your comments. >> >>> >> >>> First, my question was not meant to suggest that the visually >> >>> impaired did not have accessible options prior to the modern >> >>> version of iOS, Mac OS, etc. >> >>> >> >>> Consider, Even though mankind had harnessed the power of fire, >> >>> thousands of years ago, few would argue that the invention of >> >>> modern matches or a handheld lighter did not increase personal >> >>> independence. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Second, in my opinion, the learning curve of the legacy OS >> >>> systems was tremendously more difficult to master than modern access >> >>> technology. >> >>> >> >>> Third, many of the members in our community did not use any of >> >>> the old legacy technology so arguing their existence, in my >> >>> opinion, is pointless as my question was meant to share our Apple >> >>> product experiences; not to compare Apple products to other >> >>> technologies, modern or otherwise. >> >>> >> >>> Finally, I want to reiterate that I am only posting this rebuttal >> >>> because I want everyone to continue to contribute to this thread >> >>> and not to be, in anyway, discouraged by Gordon's comments. I am >> >>> not posting this in order to engage in a debate. >> >>> >> >>> I hope that more of you will contribute to this thread, keeping >> >>> with its intended purpose which is to simply share how Apple >> >>> products have increased your personal independence. >> >>> >> >>> Mark >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] >> >>> On Behalf Of Gordan Radic >> >>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 3:43 PM >> >>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> >>> Subject: Re: Theme Question: In What Ways Have Apple Products, or >> >>> Their Related Third-Party Apps, Increased Your Level of Personal >> >>> Independence? >> >>> >> >>> Hi to all! >> >>> >> >>> I hope i won't be a party breaker but I read some emails on the >> >>> subjectt and I can't agree with most mentioned. >> >>> >> >>> Just to refresh your memory, before iPhone got Voice Over there >> >>> was a tiny little thing called Symbian, it was used on the Nokia >> >>> smartphones and there were two screen readers called Talks and Mobile >> >>> Speak. >> >>> >> >>> So, basic things such as calling, keeping up with the contacts, >> >>> messaging, mailing, calendar, alarms, reading caller ID and even >> >>> web browsing was available to the blind community times before >> >>> first iOS with voice over. >> >>> >> >>> There wee also music and book players on those old Nokia phones. >> >>> There were also social media apps and some other things but they >> >>> weren't accessible with screen readers but, it's not Nokia or >> >>> Symbian fault, it's the developers thing. We hame the same >> >>> problems on iOS acasionally. >> >>> >> >>> Things we couldn't do on the phone we could do on our PCs. I >> >>> don't know when exactly Mac got usable Voice Over support but >> >>> Jaws, Window Eyes, Hal and NVDA are on Windows based PCs for >> >>> ages. Almost everything mentioned in previous mails was possible >> >>> for us allthe time and if you ask me, even more than on the >> >>> iProducts. With all dued respect, I still regularly use my >> >>> Windows PC for tones of tasks I can do on my phone. >> >>> >> >>> So, I can't say that iOS and iDevices in general are not great, >> >>> they really are but we can't say we didn't live before them. >> >>> Apple took us to the next level with mobility because we don't >> >>> need to carry our laptops or whatever with us and we can do >> >>> things on our iPhones on the go but we were able to do things before iOS >> >>> with Voice over. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> S poštovanjem >> >>> >> >>> Gordan Radić >> >>> >> >>> 25.05.2019 u 19:49, Paul and Paula Jordan je napisao/la: >> >>>> I was the one who swore I didn't want an IPhone no matter what. >> >>>> That was when the 4S had just come out. I have had a 7 for the >> >>>> last 2-1/2 years so that in itself says something. Hard to >> >>>> narrow down to 5 things even with some honorable mentions, but >> >>>> I'll give it a try. In no particular order: >> >>>> >> >>>> 1. the ability to do some things that would otherwise require >> >>>> sighted >> >>>> help: BE MY EYES, and VOICE DREAM SCANNER to name just two. >> >>>> 2. The ability to send text messages to keep in touch with >> >>>> others when I'm not sure they are able to take a phone call, or >> >>>> when I just want to leave a brief message. >> >>>> 3. Ability to schedule appointments on a calendar immediately. >> >>>> 4. Keeping track of where I am either walking or riding a bus or >> >>>> paratransit: BLIND SQUARE OR NEARBY EXPLORER. >> >>>> 5. Playing games on my phone just for fun. >> >>>> >> >>>> Honorable mentions: 1. Shopping with the SHIPT app and perusing >> >>>> websites like Chewy at my leisure. >> >>>> 2. Watching TV using the spectrum app even when I don't have a >> >>>> TV right where I am whether outside or in a different room from the set. >> >>>> >> >>>> 3. Quickly finding business phone numbers or addresses. >> >>>> 4. Using UBER instead of a taxi since they are quicker, I can >> >>>> contact the driver directly whether than a dispatcher, and they >> >>>> are often cheaper. >> >>>> God bless! >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm sure there are more, but that's a good start. Paula and >> >>>> Garçon -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] >> >>>> On Behalf Of M. Taylor >> >>>> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 1:49 PM >> >>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >> >>>> Subject: Theme Question: In What Ways Have Apple Products, or >> >>>> Their Related Third-Party Apps, Increased Your Level of Personal >> >>>> Independence? >> >>>> >> >>>> Hello Everyone, >> >>>> >> >>>> What are the 5 most significant ways that iOS, Watch OS, Mac OS, >> >>>> TV OS and/or any of their third-party apps increased your level >> >>>> of personal independence. >> >>>> >> >>>> As for me:. >> >>>> >> >>>> 1. >> >>>> The ability to manage and pay my bills via all of the financial >> >>>> apps such as Capital One, Bank of America, Apple Pay, etc. >> >>>> >> >>>> 2. >> >>>> The ability to navigate with infinitely more confidence with >> >>>> apps like Seeing Eye GPS Xt, Apple Maps, Uber, Nearby Explorer, etc. >> >>>> >> >>>> 3. >> >>>> The ability to read printed documents and acquire product >> >>>> information, on the fly, with apps such as K.N.F.B. Reader, >> >>>> Money Reader, the native iOS camera app, Seeing A.I., etc. >> >>>> >> >>>> 4. >> >>>> The ability to quickly and easily access social media and news >> >>>> with apps such as Twitter, the native Apple News app, NFB >> >>>> Newsline, Lire Full Text RSS news reader, Good Reads, Yelp, You Tube, >> >>>> etc. >> >>>> >> >>>> 5. >> >>>> The ability to quickly and easily access books with apps such as >> >>>> BARD Mobile, Kindle, Apple Books, and of course, my beloved Over Drive. >> >>>> >> >>>> Honorable Memtions: >> >>>> 1. >> >>>> TV Guide Mobile. >> >>>> >> >>>> 2. >> >>>> CA Lottery app. >> >>>> >> >>>> 3. >> >>>> The Parcel Track package tracking app. >> >>>> >> >>>> 4. >> >>>> Digit Eyes Bar Code reader. >> >>>> >> >>>> 5. >> >>>> The My Chart medical App. >> >>>> >> >>>> I look forward to all of your replies, >> >>>> >> >>>> Mark >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> The following information is important for all members of the V >> >>>> iPhone list. >> >>>> >> >>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >> >>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, >> >>>> please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than >> >>>> posting on the list itself. >> >>>> >> >>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: >> >>>> >> >>>> mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach >> >>>> Cara at >> >>>> >> >>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >> >>>> >> >>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >> >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >> >>>> --- >> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> >>>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >> >>>> it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >> >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >> >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/000301d51258%24f7783550%24e6689ff0%24%40edu. >> >>>> >> >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> The following information is important for all members of the V >> >>> iPhone list. >> >>> >> >>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >> >>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, >> >>> please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than >> >>> posting on the list itself. >> >>> >> >>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: >> >>> mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach >> >>> Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >> >>> >> >>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >> >>> --- >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> >>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >>> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >> >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >> >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/27b1caa5-5e08-bdb7-6404-7fd7f4b4a6dc%40gmail.com. >> >>> >> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> The following information is important for all members of the V >> >>> iPhone list. >> >>> >> >>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >> >>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, >> >>> please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than >> >>> posting on the list itself. >> >>> >> >>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: >> >>> mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach >> >>> Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >> >>> >> >>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >> >>> --- >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> >>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >>> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >> >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >> >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/000001d51359%24fd111570%24f7334050%24%40edu. >> >>> >> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> The following information is important for all members of the V >> >> iPhone list. >> >> >> >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >> >> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please >> >> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on >> >> the list itself. >> >> >> >> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: >> >> mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara >> >> at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >> >> >> >> The archives for this list can be searched at: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >> >> --- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups "VIPhone" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >> >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/E7A67B35-F73B-4CBB-A29D-E941AC1956F8%40gmail.com. >> >> >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > >> > -- >> > The following information is important for all members of the V >> > iPhone list. >> > >> > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >> > list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please >> > contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >> > itself. >> > >> > Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: >> > mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara >> > at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >> > >> > The archives for this list can be searched at: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >> > --- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups "VIPhone" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> > send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> > To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/F780E00A-06E6-4875-9D0C-A5AE1187DB8D%40gmail.com. >> > >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> The following information is important for all members of the V >> iPhone list. >> >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >> >> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: >> mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >> >> The archives for this list can be searched at: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "VIPhone" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/6E6D3DF5-2542-4402-976B-A0D19EBD5EBD%40gmail.com. >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> -- >> The following information is important for all members of the V >> iPhone list. >> >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >> >> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: >> mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at >> caraqu...@caraquinn.com >> >> The archives for this list can be searched at: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "VIPhone" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/DM6PR03MB460370F9B03EC06A4FE19136FB1C0%40DM6PR03MB4603.namprd03.prod.outlook.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone > list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, > or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact > the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: > mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/17A8A814-C5DA-41DD-A56B-8FB0E20F040E%40gmail.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Joshua Hendrickson Joshua Hendrickson -- The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/CADUoy9t0zksgYDyUwaC_10%3DGcZW2kzKYc6x-aO%3DwkRQnasNbzQ%40mail.gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: mk...@ucla.edu. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. 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