Hello Christopher and all: I had read Neil's original post and all of the subsequent posts written about this topic. My confusion stemmed from this line of Neil's original post:
"Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers > >>>> with >>>> accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is that >>>> where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple App >>>> Store >>>> has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without >>>> question." Given this statement I was left wondering if there was a policy or not concerning persons with disabilities. I have not gleaned any such policies from the email traffic. the policy I am aware of is Apple's no refund policy. so, is the question that Apple is instituting a policy which it has had all along and everyone is now subject to it … is apple just behaving capriciously in regard to access or what? Again, as I said before … let me be clear … I am not asking a question that has a pre rehearsed answer. though I believe that is the question … are we now being subject to a policy that has applied to everyone else or is there some falling down on the job by apple. I raise this question because this list is an excellent resource for people not only to learn about the wonderful things Apple products can do it also serves as a thoughtful forum for how to use such devices responsibly :). even though sometimes accessibility can be a six syllable word for headache :) Again, thank you to anyone whom has contributed to this topic in a constructive manner. it goes a long way to making this community more vibrant. Take good care and I wish you enough. Patrick On Sep 11, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> wrote: > I think if you read Neil's original post, it'll become clear. Neil's post is > still at the bottom of this thread. > > Apple's policy is that there are no refunds for App Store purchases. In the > past, blind customers have been pretty successful in getting refunds from > Apple for apps that turned out not to be accessible. There have been more and > more reported cases of Apple not granting such refunds lately and sticking to > their no refund policy. Neil is asking for this refund policy to be put in > place and for Apple to do more with developers to ensure their apps are > accessible. Again, don't let me put words in Neil's mouth and go ahead and > read his original message to the list. > > There have been other discussions about some of the wording used in Neil's > post. For example, he said he was patronized to but others have felt that > they didn't see any evidence of this. > > On 09/11/2013 02:11 PM, Patrick Neazer wrote: >> Hello Neil, Joseph, and all: >> >> I have been following this thread since its inception and I must confess I >> am a bit confused by the arc of the conversation. It began with a judgement >> pertaining to a policy which may or may not exist addressing the refund of >> money for app purchases. then, a turn was taken to patronizing activity or >> not. then there was an appeal to the upstanding credentials of an individual >> and then … well … I lost the trail. >> >> I am not attempting to take sides or a stand. I am truly attempting to >> understand what is actually occurring and what the call to action is. so, in >> an attempt to clarify my obvious unclear view here is my question … does >> Apple have a stated policy or procedure which is clearly stated and viewable >> by the public governing refunds for app purchases and does there policy >> outline any unique exemptions based on pick the criteria of choice? If that >> information could be presented as quickly as links to write to apple >> requesting policy changes and adaptations to business practices that would >> go a long way I believe to clearing up my apparent confusion and sharpening >> the discussion in the minds of other members of the community who may be >> experiencing the same confusion I am experiencing. Of course, I may be the >> only one confused and if so, anyone reading this whom has been following the >> thread is free to disregard anything written above. >> >> Thank you to anyone who reads this and responds in a constructive manner and >> high fives to all those who take up the mantle of improving the tools which >> make the lives of persons with disabilities easier to navigate. >> >> Take good care and I wish you enough. >> >> Patrick >> On Sep 11, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Joseph FreeTech <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Well, the suggestion I posted has nothing to do with you personally. >>> <Smile>. it's a general, unbiased suggestion, and had anyone else made it, I >>> would have suggested the same thing. It was another lister who turned this >>> into a bit of an ad hominem discussion. >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <[email protected]> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:22 AM >>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>> >>> >>> Joseph, >>> >>> As Sieghard has said, I'm not one for such things, and have been a positive >>> advocate of our community online and off line for many, many years now… I >>> would recommend that you check out my web-site; neilbarnfather.com for some >>> information and this might explain a little more about myself and my work. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Neil Barnfather >>> >>> Talks List Administrator >>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>> >>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple >>> iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your >>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>> >>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>> e-mail: - [email protected] >>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>> >>> On 11 Sep 2013, at 17:13, Joseph FreeTech <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Very smart suggestion. Let's say we all jump on this bandwagon (once >>>> again), >>>> and in the end we discover that whoever the original person this happened >>>> to >>>> was very nasty and demanding to the Apple customer service employees; >>>> hence >>>> the poor service. We're all going to be very embarrassed and not likely to >>>> take this issue up again in the future. We first need proof of a pattern >>>> of >>>> poor service and not just some single person's complaint. >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Lisa belville" <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:59 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi. Is there any way you could share a letter showing how the Apple >>>> people >>>> were patronizing/unhelpful in this regard? I understand the frustration >>>> of >>>> not getting a refund for something inaccessible and how a clueless rep >>>> makes >>>> this all the more annoying, but IMO there's a difference between >>>> politely/patiently conveying a policy and being patronizing. Obviously, >>>> you >>>> can take out any names in this letter, but it would be good to see an >>>> example of this attitude. Could it possibly be this particular rep's >>>> issue >>>> and not necessarily one of Apple itself? I'm referring to the >>>> patronizing/unsympathetic attitude and not the policy itself. >>>> >>>> Lisa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a >>>> paycheck! >>>> Lisa Belville >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; "The >>>> Accessible Phones Discussion List" <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:58 AM >>>> Subject: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>> >>>> >>>> The below should prove a concern to all Apple accessibility feature users, >>>> and I would urge as many of you who can do so, to please write to Apple >>>> yourselves to express your concern along the same lines where possible… >>>> ([email protected]). >>>> >>>> For years now Apple has led the way in accessibility standards and >>>> application of methods in interacting with all of its product range. >>>> Internationally within many disability arenas Apple is celebrated as the >>>> defacto standard and is widely acknowledged as users preferred platform >>>> for >>>> persons with accessibility issues. >>>> >>>> Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers >>>> with >>>> accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is that >>>> where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple App >>>> Store >>>> has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without >>>> question. >>>> >>>> Since Apple do not enforce accessibility standards, nor in anyway >>>> whatsoever >>>> offer a method of a disabled user to know whether or not an App is, or is >>>> not, accessible in advance of purchase, this seemed to be a most >>>> reasonable >>>> compromise. >>>> >>>> However, in correspondence over the past week with Apple iTunes support >>>> staff via e-mail in relation to an App I have purchased which is >>>> inaccessible, Apple's stance has been both surprising and frankly highly >>>> dismissive of our needs and vulnerability when using Apple's App Store. >>>> >>>> I have been point blank refused a refund upon this occasion, with staff >>>> suggesting that I could leave a review for the App which others could >>>> read, >>>> and or write to the developer. Whilst I understand that the second >>>> suggestion may illicit a positive response, and sometimes it does… In many >>>> instances developers haven't even heard of Voice Over let alone understand >>>> what it does and how they aught to address compliance with Apple's >>>> Accessibility API's. >>>> >>>> Of course, the best approach would be for Apple to make compliance with >>>> its >>>> Accessibility API's a requirement for all new Apps being approved to the >>>> App >>>> Store, indeed a range of other options would also work, such as; a >>>> discount >>>> on the 30% cut that Apple takes for compliant Apps, a penalty higher fee >>>> (35% etc) for those that do not comply and perhaps indicating with a >>>> marker >>>> in the App store which Apps do meet the requirements. >>>> >>>> Since Apple do none of these, despite so publicly professing to up holding >>>> and supporting some of the most well implemented accessibility innovation >>>> and support seen in the industry, it seemed like a fair compromise that >>>> Apple voluntarily and without complication offered a refund to customers >>>> who >>>> had accessibility needs where an App proved to be inaccessible. >>>> >>>> The situation now, though is that Apple is refusing in an uncompromising >>>> and >>>> frankly shocking way to refund such purchases, with patronising and >>>> unsympathetic suggestions as to how we, as blind users, go about reviewing >>>> Apps etc. >>>> >>>> I would ask that Apple firstly developed a robust policy in this regard, >>>> and >>>> secondly, reviews options as to improving the compliance uptake of >>>> developers within their iOS and Mac App Stores. >>>> >>>> So that I can convey your response to the ViPhone, Macvisionaries and >>>> other >>>> Apple Accessibility user forums promptly, I would sincerely appreciate >>>> your >>>> earliest feedback and response on this issue. >>>> >>>> Yours kindly. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Neil Barnfather >>>> >>>> http://www.NeilBarnfather.com > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google > Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > [email protected]. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > [email protected]. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing [email protected]. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
