Hello Christopher and all: Hopefully with your blessing I am going to change one term in your email for the purpose of avoiding potential comebacks that are not helpful … I am going to change "assumed" to "operating from the premise." This discussion has been pretty constructive so comments ending with … you and me … may not be useful :).
That premise is exactly what is the key. what we do know is that the across the board no refund policy is the Apple policy. What is not known is whether there was a practice of conducting refunds and Apple has determined … for some reason … that it needs to be updated or changed. now, if one wants to look at it from a negative vantage point, did they change it because of what the company saw as abuse and hassle. or, is it their opinion that they have made all of the provisions necessary for developers to do their job and therefore refunds are not something that they feel a need to engage in. I am not proclaiming to no the answer … though that answer I believe will not only shed some light on what is the best next step for the iPhone consumer to make it may provide guidance where those of us in the community may want to concentrate their efforts. some may want to find additional methods to encourage developers. vital since one developer mentioned earlier that in his opinion, Apple could do a better job with its literature :) surprise, techies write bad literature that others must read. Still, other members of the community might want to get apple to institute a special policy based upon accessibility if one did not exist although someone may ask does that sort of bump up against the whole idea of accessibility. If anyone wants to answer that question, please write me off list. that may be way out of the scope for this list. In short, the question is was there a policy in the first place or was apple engaging in a practice that was unofficial and now they have officially decided to stop it. And, that is not splitting hairs. That is the relationship all customers have with companies … voiceover users included. Outstanding points made by you. Hopefully you will be able to say the same for me :). Take good care and I wish you enough. Patrick On Sep 11, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote: > I've never heard that there was such an official policy from Apple regarding > refunds for apps which turned out to be inaccessible. As Neil and others have > said, people have gotten refunds in the past for this reason, so people > assumed that there was an understanding or an unofficial policy to give such > refunds. Now, with more and more reports of people being turned down for such > refunds, and at least some Apple representatives sticking to Apple's official > policy on refunds, Neil and others are asking for a clarification, and > further, that such a policy be established, unless of course Apple can > guarantee either accessibility of all of it's apps or a way for a user to > determine, before purchasing an app, if it will be accessible. I'm not sure > if that clarifies anything or not. > > On 09/11/2013 03:15 PM, Patrick Neazer wrote: >> Hello Christopher and all: >> >> I had read Neil's original post and all of the subsequent posts written >> about this topic. My confusion stemmed from this line of Neil's original >> post: >> >> "Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers >>> >>>>>> with >>>>>> accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is that >>>>>> where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple App >>>>>> Store >>>>>> has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without >>>>>> question." >> >> Given this statement I was left wondering if there was a policy or not >> concerning persons with disabilities. I have not gleaned any such policies >> from the email traffic. the policy I am aware of is Apple's no refund >> policy. so, is the question that Apple is instituting a policy which it has >> had all along and everyone is now subject to it … is apple just behaving >> capriciously in regard to access or what? >> >> Again, as I said before … let me be clear … I am not asking a question that >> has a pre rehearsed answer. though I believe that is the question … are we >> now being subject to a policy that has applied to everyone else or is there >> some falling down on the job by apple. >> >> I raise this question because this list is an excellent resource for people >> not only to learn about the wonderful things Apple products can do it also >> serves as a thoughtful forum for how to use such devices responsibly :). >> even though sometimes accessibility can be a six syllable word for headache >> :) >> >> Again, thank you to anyone whom has contributed to this topic in a >> constructive manner. it goes a long way to making this community more >> vibrant. >> >> Take good care and I wish you enough. >> >> Patrick >> On Sep 11, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I think if you read Neil's original post, it'll become clear. Neil's post >>> is still at the bottom of this thread. >>> >>> Apple's policy is that there are no refunds for App Store purchases. In the >>> past, blind customers have been pretty successful in getting refunds from >>> Apple for apps that turned out not to be accessible. There have been more >>> and more reported cases of Apple not granting such refunds lately and >>> sticking to their no refund policy. Neil is asking for this refund policy >>> to be put in place and for Apple to do more with developers to ensure their >>> apps are accessible. Again, don't let me put words in Neil's mouth and go >>> ahead and read his original message to the list. >>> >>> There have been other discussions about some of the wording used in Neil's >>> post. For example, he said he was patronized to but others have felt that >>> they didn't see any evidence of this. >>> >>> On 09/11/2013 02:11 PM, Patrick Neazer wrote: >>>> Hello Neil, Joseph, and all: >>>> >>>> I have been following this thread since its inception and I must confess I >>>> am a bit confused by the arc of the conversation. It began with a >>>> judgement pertaining to a policy which may or may not exist addressing the >>>> refund of money for app purchases. then, a turn was taken to patronizing >>>> activity or not. then there was an appeal to the upstanding credentials of >>>> an individual and then … well … I lost the trail. >>>> >>>> I am not attempting to take sides or a stand. I am truly attempting to >>>> understand what is actually occurring and what the call to action is. so, >>>> in an attempt to clarify my obvious unclear view here is my question … >>>> does Apple have a stated policy or procedure which is clearly stated and >>>> viewable by the public governing refunds for app purchases and does there >>>> policy outline any unique exemptions based on pick the criteria of choice? >>>> If that information could be presented as quickly as links to write to >>>> apple requesting policy changes and adaptations to business practices that >>>> would go a long way I believe to clearing up my apparent confusion and >>>> sharpening the discussion in the minds of other members of the community >>>> who may be experiencing the same confusion I am experiencing. Of course, I >>>> may be the only one confused and if so, anyone reading this whom has been >>>> following the thread is free to disregard anything written above. >>>> >>>> Thank you to anyone who reads this and responds in a constructive manner >>>> and high fives to all those who take up the mantle of improving the tools >>>> which make the lives of persons with disabilities easier to navigate. >>>> >>>> Take good care and I wish you enough. >>>> >>>> Patrick >>>> On Sep 11, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well, the suggestion I posted has nothing to do with you personally. >>>>> <Smile>. it's a general, unbiased suggestion, and had anyone else made >>>>> it, I >>>>> would have suggested the same thing. It was another lister who turned this >>>>> into a bit of an ad hominem discussion. >>>>> >>>>> Joseph >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <for...@talknav.com> >>>>> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:22 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joseph, >>>>> >>>>> As Sieghard has said, I'm not one for such things, and have been a >>>>> positive >>>>> advocate of our community online and off line for many, many years now… I >>>>> would recommend that you check out my web-site; neilbarnfather.com for >>>>> some >>>>> information and this might explain a little more about myself and my work. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>> >>>>> Talks List Administrator >>>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>>>> >>>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple >>>>> iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your >>>>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>>>> >>>>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>>>> e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com >>>>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>>>> >>>>> On 11 Sep 2013, at 17:13, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Very smart suggestion. Let's say we all jump on this bandwagon (once >>>>>> again), >>>>>> and in the end we discover that whoever the original person this happened >>>>>> to >>>>>> was very nasty and demanding to the Apple customer service employees; >>>>>> hence >>>>>> the poor service. We're all going to be very embarrassed and not likely >>>>>> to >>>>>> take this issue up again in the future. We first need proof of a pattern >>>>>> of >>>>>> poor service and not just some single person's complaint. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joseph >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Lisa belville" <missktlab1...@frontier.com> >>>>>> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:59 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi. Is there any way you could share a letter showing how the Apple >>>>>> people >>>>>> were patronizing/unhelpful in this regard? I understand the frustration >>>>>> of >>>>>> not getting a refund for something inaccessible and how a clueless rep >>>>>> makes >>>>>> this all the more annoying, but IMO there's a difference between >>>>>> politely/patiently conveying a policy and being patronizing. Obviously, >>>>>> you >>>>>> can take out any names in this letter, but it would be good to see an >>>>>> example of this attitude. Could it possibly be this particular rep's >>>>>> issue >>>>>> and not necessarily one of Apple itself? I'm referring to the >>>>>> patronizing/unsympathetic attitude and not the policy itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lisa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a >>>>>> paycheck! >>>>>> Lisa Belville >>>>>> missktlab1...@frontier.com >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <for...@talknav.com> >>>>>> To: <macvisionar...@googlegroups.com>; <viphone@googlegroups.com>; "The >>>>>> Accessible Phones Discussion List" <blindpho...@mosenexplosion.com> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:58 AM >>>>>> Subject: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The below should prove a concern to all Apple accessibility feature >>>>>> users, >>>>>> and I would urge as many of you who can do so, to please write to Apple >>>>>> yourselves to express your concern along the same lines where possible… >>>>>> (accessibil...@apple.com). >>>>>> >>>>>> For years now Apple has led the way in accessibility standards and >>>>>> application of methods in interacting with all of its product range. >>>>>> Internationally within many disability arenas Apple is celebrated as the >>>>>> defacto standard and is widely acknowledged as users preferred platform >>>>>> for >>>>>> persons with accessibility issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers >>>>>> with >>>>>> accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is that >>>>>> where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple App >>>>>> Store >>>>>> has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without >>>>>> question. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since Apple do not enforce accessibility standards, nor in anyway >>>>>> whatsoever >>>>>> offer a method of a disabled user to know whether or not an App is, or is >>>>>> not, accessible in advance of purchase, this seemed to be a most >>>>>> reasonable >>>>>> compromise. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, in correspondence over the past week with Apple iTunes support >>>>>> staff via e-mail in relation to an App I have purchased which is >>>>>> inaccessible, Apple's stance has been both surprising and frankly highly >>>>>> dismissive of our needs and vulnerability when using Apple's App Store. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been point blank refused a refund upon this occasion, with staff >>>>>> suggesting that I could leave a review for the App which others could >>>>>> read, >>>>>> and or write to the developer. Whilst I understand that the second >>>>>> suggestion may illicit a positive response, and sometimes it does… In >>>>>> many >>>>>> instances developers haven't even heard of Voice Over let alone >>>>>> understand >>>>>> what it does and how they aught to address compliance with Apple's >>>>>> Accessibility API's. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, the best approach would be for Apple to make compliance with >>>>>> its >>>>>> Accessibility API's a requirement for all new Apps being approved to the >>>>>> App >>>>>> Store, indeed a range of other options would also work, such as; a >>>>>> discount >>>>>> on the 30% cut that Apple takes for compliant Apps, a penalty higher fee >>>>>> (35% etc) for those that do not comply and perhaps indicating with a >>>>>> marker >>>>>> in the App store which Apps do meet the requirements. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since Apple do none of these, despite so publicly professing to up >>>>>> holding >>>>>> and supporting some of the most well implemented accessibility innovation >>>>>> and support seen in the industry, it seemed like a fair compromise that >>>>>> Apple voluntarily and without complication offered a refund to customers >>>>>> who >>>>>> had accessibility needs where an App proved to be inaccessible. >>>>>> >>>>>> The situation now, though is that Apple is refusing in an uncompromising >>>>>> and >>>>>> frankly shocking way to refund such purchases, with patronising and >>>>>> unsympathetic suggestions as to how we, as blind users, go about >>>>>> reviewing >>>>>> Apps etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would ask that Apple firstly developed a robust policy in this regard, >>>>>> and >>>>>> secondly, reviews options as to improving the compliance uptake of >>>>>> developers within their iOS and Mac App Stores. >>>>>> >>>>>> So that I can convey your response to the ViPhone, Macvisionaries and >>>>>> other >>>>>> Apple Accessibility user forums promptly, I would sincerely appreciate >>>>>> your >>>>>> earliest feedback and response on this issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yours kindly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.NeilBarnfather.com >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher (CJ) >>> chaltain at Gmail >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>> Google Group. >>> >>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>> >>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google > Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
