Christopher, You took the words right out of my mouth, that is the nub of my points to the letter.
Regards, Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator Twitter @neilbarnfather TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com URL: - www.talknav.com e-mail: - [email protected] Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 On 11 Sep 2013, at 21:25, Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> wrote: > I've never heard that there was such an official policy from Apple regarding > refunds for apps which turned out to be inaccessible. As Neil and others have > said, people have gotten refunds in the past for this reason, so people > assumed that there was an understanding or an unofficial policy to give such > refunds. Now, with more and more reports of people being turned down for such > refunds, and at least some Apple representatives sticking to Apple's official > policy on refunds, Neil and others are asking for a clarification, and > further, that such a policy be established, unless of course Apple can > guarantee either accessibility of all of it's apps or a way for a user to > determine, before purchasing an app, if it will be accessible. I'm not sure > if that clarifies anything or not. > > On 09/11/2013 03:15 PM, Patrick Neazer wrote: >> Hello Christopher and all: >> >> I had read Neil's original post and all of the subsequent posts written >> about this topic. My confusion stemmed from this line of Neil's original >> post: >> >> "Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers >>> >>>>>> with >>>>>> accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is that >>>>>> where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple App >>>>>> Store >>>>>> has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without >>>>>> question." >> >> Given this statement I was left wondering if there was a policy or not >> concerning persons with disabilities. I have not gleaned any such policies >> from the email traffic. the policy I am aware of is Apple's no refund >> policy. so, is the question that Apple is instituting a policy which it has >> had all along and everyone is now subject to it … is apple just behaving >> capriciously in regard to access or what? >> >> Again, as I said before … let me be clear … I am not asking a question that >> has a pre rehearsed answer. though I believe that is the question … are we >> now being subject to a policy that has applied to everyone else or is there >> some falling down on the job by apple. >> >> I raise this question because this list is an excellent resource for people >> not only to learn about the wonderful things Apple products can do it also >> serves as a thoughtful forum for how to use such devices responsibly :). >> even though sometimes accessibility can be a six syllable word for headache >> :) >> >> Again, thank you to anyone whom has contributed to this topic in a >> constructive manner. it goes a long way to making this community more >> vibrant. >> >> Take good care and I wish you enough. >> >> Patrick >> On Sep 11, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I think if you read Neil's original post, it'll become clear. Neil's post >>> is still at the bottom of this thread. >>> >>> Apple's policy is that there are no refunds for App Store purchases. In the >>> past, blind customers have been pretty successful in getting refunds from >>> Apple for apps that turned out not to be accessible. There have been more >>> and more reported cases of Apple not granting such refunds lately and >>> sticking to their no refund policy. Neil is asking for this refund policy >>> to be put in place and for Apple to do more with developers to ensure their >>> apps are accessible. Again, don't let me put words in Neil's mouth and go >>> ahead and read his original message to the list. >>> >>> There have been other discussions about some of the wording used in Neil's >>> post. For example, he said he was patronized to but others have felt that >>> they didn't see any evidence of this. >>> >>> On 09/11/2013 02:11 PM, Patrick Neazer wrote: >>>> Hello Neil, Joseph, and all: >>>> >>>> I have been following this thread since its inception and I must confess I >>>> am a bit confused by the arc of the conversation. It began with a >>>> judgement pertaining to a policy which may or may not exist addressing the >>>> refund of money for app purchases. then, a turn was taken to patronizing >>>> activity or not. then there was an appeal to the upstanding credentials of >>>> an individual and then … well … I lost the trail. >>>> >>>> I am not attempting to take sides or a stand. I am truly attempting to >>>> understand what is actually occurring and what the call to action is. so, >>>> in an attempt to clarify my obvious unclear view here is my question … >>>> does Apple have a stated policy or procedure which is clearly stated and >>>> viewable by the public governing refunds for app purchases and does there >>>> policy outline any unique exemptions based on pick the criteria of choice? >>>> If that information could be presented as quickly as links to write to >>>> apple requesting policy changes and adaptations to business practices that >>>> would go a long way I believe to clearing up my apparent confusion and >>>> sharpening the discussion in the minds of other members of the community >>>> who may be experiencing the same confusion I am experiencing. Of course, I >>>> may be the only one confused and if so, anyone reading this whom has been >>>> following the thread is free to disregard anything written above. >>>> >>>> Thank you to anyone who reads this and responds in a constructive manner >>>> and high fives to all those who take up the mantle of improving the tools >>>> which make the lives of persons with disabilities easier to navigate. >>>> >>>> Take good care and I wish you enough. >>>> >>>> Patrick >>>> On Sep 11, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Joseph FreeTech <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well, the suggestion I posted has nothing to do with you personally. >>>>> <Smile>. it's a general, unbiased suggestion, and had anyone else made >>>>> it, I >>>>> would have suggested the same thing. It was another lister who turned this >>>>> into a bit of an ad hominem discussion. >>>>> >>>>> Joseph >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <[email protected]> >>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:22 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joseph, >>>>> >>>>> As Sieghard has said, I'm not one for such things, and have been a >>>>> positive >>>>> advocate of our community online and off line for many, many years now… I >>>>> would recommend that you check out my web-site; neilbarnfather.com for >>>>> some >>>>> information and this might explain a little more about myself and my work. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>> >>>>> Talks List Administrator >>>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>>>> >>>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple >>>>> iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your >>>>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>>>> >>>>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>>>> e-mail: - [email protected] >>>>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>>>> >>>>> On 11 Sep 2013, at 17:13, Joseph FreeTech <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Very smart suggestion. Let's say we all jump on this bandwagon (once >>>>>> again), >>>>>> and in the end we discover that whoever the original person this happened >>>>>> to >>>>>> was very nasty and demanding to the Apple customer service employees; >>>>>> hence >>>>>> the poor service. We're all going to be very embarrassed and not likely >>>>>> to >>>>>> take this issue up again in the future. We first need proof of a pattern >>>>>> of >>>>>> poor service and not just some single person's complaint. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joseph >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Lisa belville" <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:59 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi. Is there any way you could share a letter showing how the Apple >>>>>> people >>>>>> were patronizing/unhelpful in this regard? I understand the frustration >>>>>> of >>>>>> not getting a refund for something inaccessible and how a clueless rep >>>>>> makes >>>>>> this all the more annoying, but IMO there's a difference between >>>>>> politely/patiently conveying a policy and being patronizing. Obviously, >>>>>> you >>>>>> can take out any names in this letter, but it would be good to see an >>>>>> example of this attitude. Could it possibly be this particular rep's >>>>>> issue >>>>>> and not necessarily one of Apple itself? I'm referring to the >>>>>> patronizing/unsympathetic attitude and not the policy itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lisa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a >>>>>> paycheck! >>>>>> Lisa Belville >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; "The >>>>>> Accessible Phones Discussion List" <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:58 AM >>>>>> Subject: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The below should prove a concern to all Apple accessibility feature >>>>>> users, >>>>>> and I would urge as many of you who can do so, to please write to Apple >>>>>> yourselves to express your concern along the same lines where possible… >>>>>> ([email protected]). >>>>>> >>>>>> For years now Apple has led the way in accessibility standards and >>>>>> application of methods in interacting with all of its product range. >>>>>> Internationally within many disability arenas Apple is celebrated as the >>>>>> defacto standard and is widely acknowledged as users preferred platform >>>>>> for >>>>>> persons with accessibility issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers >>>>>> with >>>>>> accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is that >>>>>> where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple App >>>>>> Store >>>>>> has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without >>>>>> question. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since Apple do not enforce accessibility standards, nor in anyway >>>>>> whatsoever >>>>>> offer a method of a disabled user to know whether or not an App is, or is >>>>>> not, accessible in advance of purchase, this seemed to be a most >>>>>> reasonable >>>>>> compromise. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, in correspondence over the past week with Apple iTunes support >>>>>> staff via e-mail in relation to an App I have purchased which is >>>>>> inaccessible, Apple's stance has been both surprising and frankly highly >>>>>> dismissive of our needs and vulnerability when using Apple's App Store. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been point blank refused a refund upon this occasion, with staff >>>>>> suggesting that I could leave a review for the App which others could >>>>>> read, >>>>>> and or write to the developer. Whilst I understand that the second >>>>>> suggestion may illicit a positive response, and sometimes it does… In >>>>>> many >>>>>> instances developers haven't even heard of Voice Over let alone >>>>>> understand >>>>>> what it does and how they aught to address compliance with Apple's >>>>>> Accessibility API's. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, the best approach would be for Apple to make compliance with >>>>>> its >>>>>> Accessibility API's a requirement for all new Apps being approved to the >>>>>> App >>>>>> Store, indeed a range of other options would also work, such as; a >>>>>> discount >>>>>> on the 30% cut that Apple takes for compliant Apps, a penalty higher fee >>>>>> (35% etc) for those that do not comply and perhaps indicating with a >>>>>> marker >>>>>> in the App store which Apps do meet the requirements. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since Apple do none of these, despite so publicly professing to up >>>>>> holding >>>>>> and supporting some of the most well implemented accessibility innovation >>>>>> and support seen in the industry, it seemed like a fair compromise that >>>>>> Apple voluntarily and without complication offered a refund to customers >>>>>> who >>>>>> had accessibility needs where an App proved to be inaccessible. >>>>>> >>>>>> The situation now, though is that Apple is refusing in an uncompromising >>>>>> and >>>>>> frankly shocking way to refund such purchases, with patronising and >>>>>> unsympathetic suggestions as to how we, as blind users, go about >>>>>> reviewing >>>>>> Apps etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would ask that Apple firstly developed a robust policy in this regard, >>>>>> and >>>>>> secondly, reviews options as to improving the compliance uptake of >>>>>> developers within their iOS and Mac App Stores. >>>>>> >>>>>> So that I can convey your response to the ViPhone, Macvisionaries and >>>>>> other >>>>>> Apple Accessibility user forums promptly, I would sincerely appreciate >>>>>> your >>>>>> earliest feedback and response on this issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yours kindly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Neil Barnfather >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.NeilBarnfather.com >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher (CJ) >>> chaltain at Gmail >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>> Google Group. >>> >>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. >>> >>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >>> >>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>> [email protected]. >>> >>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>> [email protected]. >>> >>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google > Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > [email protected]. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > [email protected]. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing [email protected]. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
