In reply to  Eric Walker's message of Fri, 2 Feb 2018 17:44:50 -0700:
>On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 2:12 PM, <> wrote:
>2) Any resultant energy would be red shifted back to nothing leaving the
>> gravity
>> well anyway. (Thus also reducing the information transport rate to zero in
>> the
>> process.)
>I did not appreciate this point.  Let's go with your option (2) and assume
>that matter (e.g., electrons and positrons) can cross the event horizon and
>annihilate.  I believe this can be adjusted to happen on a timeline that is
>contemporaneous with our own by moving the electron and positron
>arbitrarily closer to one another prior to crossing the event horizon.  In
>this scenario, I am unsure how the photons will completely redshift in our
>own timeline, as this will be a gradual process which will presumably take
>an infinite amount of time to complete from our perspective.  

No, light travels at the speed of light, so if already outside the event
horizon, it escapes at the speed of light, however it gets red shifted leaving
the gravity well.
IOW it's not the speed that is affected, but the frequency.

>During that
>time they will not have fully been drained of energy (assuming this is a

The draining of energy manifests as a frequency reduction. (Photon energy being
In escaping from very close to an event horizon, almost all frequency is lost (I
>Here is where I start to get stumped.  I would imagine that unlike
>electromagnetic radiation, gravitational influence does not follow the
>(gravitationally warped) curvature of spacetime.  Otherwise we'd have the
>paradoxical situation of gravity bending in on itself because there is so
>much mass.  So I assume the resultant loss in gravitational attraction
>traveling outwards at the speed of light from where the electron and
>positron annihilated will escape the black hole within a period of time
>that we can observe it.

Because of the red shift of the photons, their mass energy is effectively
retained by the black hole, thus increasing it's gravitational field by the same

So now, you have either proven that photons do contribute to gravitational mass,
or that particles never enter a black hole. :)

Part of the problem may be that you don't state how the pair got close to the
event horizon in the first place. That makes matter/energy/gravity accounting

Robin van Spaandonk

local asymmetry = temporary success

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