On 5/06/2018 2:40 AM, Vibrator ! wrote: Your view of what is conserved and why is too simple, and essentially incomplete.

All force interactions perform work against the vacuum activity manifesting that force - the discrete, quantised energy exchanges between the respective force carriers in question, traded in units of h-bar - essentially, 'ambient' quantum momentum. When we input mechanical energy to a such field, there is no number scribbled down in a book somewhere - rather, it's an emergent calculation determined by the application of the relevant F*d integrals being mediated at lightspeed - ie, essentially instantaneously, as they pertain to the respective dimensions of the given energy terms. Thus if output and input energy terms are in different respective dimensions, any equivalence between net energies as a function of changes in time and space is dependent upon further conditions with regards to how each term scales in the other's domain. If both input and output energy terms are in the same fields and domains, then their equality is a given. And yet, it would be a step too far to conclude that the Joule we get back out was 'the same' Joule we put it. When we spend 1 J lifting a weight, so having performed work against gravity, there isn't a tab somewhere saying "gravity owes Bob 1 J". The fact that we only get 1 J back out from the drop is simply an incidental consequence of the invariant input vs output conditions. But it's not manifestly 'the same' Joule you put in - just the same amount of energy / work. I agree with you. It is not manifestly the same joule. So depositing money in the bank may be a better illustration (or pumping electrical power into the electricity grid). I can deposit $1000 in one city in $20 bills and pull the same amount out in another city in $50 bills. It is not manifestly the same cash that I have taken back out, but the bank makes sure that the amounts always balance! So Nature does the same job as the bank tellers and accountants. Whenever you do the calculation correctly, after allowing for incomings and outgoings, the overall energy balance sheet always balances perfectly - which is almost the same as saying that gravity owes Bob 1 J! You might wonder who the tellers and accountants are that work for mother Nature. The simple answer is that they are Newton's equations. When applied correctly the spreadsheet always ends up balanced because the equations themselves are balanced. I believe that you can achieve an imbalance, but not by operating in accord with Newton's equations. You have to do something a lot more subtle and sneaky and discover an effect that has not been noticed and a term that has not been included in the equations. And it is bound to be a small effect (eg < 1% of energy being exchanged) or it would have been noticed a long time ago. With the right change in those determinant conditions, we can get more out, or less. An under-unity, or over-unity result. Consider the case for so-called 'non-dissipative' loss mechanisms, in which the energy in question has NOT simply been radiated away to low-grade heat. I'm talking about 'non-thermodynamic' losses, in the literal sense. For example: - Due to Sv (entropy viscosity - the subject of Rutherford's first paper in 1886), a small NdFeB magnet will rapidly leap across a small airgap to latch onto a lump of 'pig iron', in less time than is required for the iron's subsequent induced magnetisation ('B', in Maxwell's terms) to reach its corresponding threshold (Bmax, or even saturation density - Bmax - if its coercivity is low enough). So the iron's level of induced B, from the neo, continues increasing long after the mechanical action's all over. We could monitor this changing internal state, using a simple coil and audio amplifier, tuning in to the so-called Barkhausen jumps, as progressively harder-pinned domains succumb to the growing influence of their lower-coercivity neighbors. After some time, the clicking noise abates, and so we know the sample's at Bmax. We now prise them apart again, however because B has risen, so has the mechanical force and thus work involved in separating them. Quite simply, due to the time-dependent change in force, which did not occur instantaneously at lightspeed, the system is mechanically under-unity - it outputs less energy during the inbound integral, than must be input during the outbound integral over the same distance. So we could input 2 J, but only get 1 J back out. By my calculation you have got nothing out. You let the magnet fly and collide into the pig-iron so that the 1 J you might have recovered from its kinetic energy ended up as heat during the collision. Following this the permanent magnet slowly magnetises the pig-iron. To the extent that this is slow (due to magnetic viscosity) and occurs in jumps (generating Barkhausen noise), this process is lossy and generates heat by jiggling the domains. The fact that you have forced pinned sites to become magnetized means that some of the induced magnetization will be retained. So that now when you try to prize them apart you are also working against some permanent magnetism. So the energy required to force pinned sites to switch magnetization (some of which was dissipated as heat) now has to be put back into the system as the force required to return the permanent magnet back to its initial position. So you have to put in both the kinetic energy (1 J) that you failed to recover and the energy (1 J) that resulted in the pig-iron becoming magnetized and warmer. Yet this 'loss' has not been dissipated as heat - it's simply energy that never existed, never came to be, in the first place. Energy that could've been collected, had we constrained the neo's approach speed, to allow induced B to keep up... but which wasn't, because we didn't. Thus the extra Joule we had to input has performed more work against the virtual-photon-spehere (being the EM mediator), than it in turn has output back into the mechanical realm. Assuming ultimate conservation - as you would seem to - we've raised the vacuum energy by 1 J, with a 50% under-unity EM-mechanical interaction. I agree that the energy can be stored as "vacuum energy" but I disagree that any *text book process* can create or destroy energy. If you think so then you have not fully read the small print of the text book! Yet we don't need such exotica as obscure magnetic effects to achieve this feat... simply consider a moving mass, colliding inelastically with an equal, static one: - so we could have 1 kg flying into a static 1 kg - or equally, a rotating 1 kg-m^2 angular inertia being instantly braked against an identical static one Since spontaneously doubling the amount of inertia that a given conserved momentum is divided into accordingly halves its speed, we end up with half the kinetic energy. "Ah", but you say, "the collision converted the other half of the KE into heat!" That is correct. That is how Newton's equations are correctly applied. But is that actually what happens? If we began with say 1 kg * 1 m/s linear momentum, so half a Joule, which then inelastically scoops up another, static 1 kg, we now have 1 kg-m/s divided into two 1 kg masses, hence a net system velocity of 0.5 m/s, and 125 mJ on each, for a 250 mJ net KE. Notice that we've necessarily assumed full conservation of our velocity component, simply sharing it evenly between the two masses, in order to conserve net momentum. Given that the original KE value of 500 mJ was a function of that conserved velocity, and that the final KE of 2 * 125 mJ is also dependent upon the equitable distribution of that same conserved quantity.. where does the velocity and thus momentum that could constitute mechanical heat come from? How could we have accelerated the air and molecules around the system, if not by transferring momentum and thus velocity to them? Which would mean we'd have to have LESS than 0.5 m/s of velocity and thus less than 0.5 kg-m/s of momentum and so less than 125 mJ on each 1 kg mass! Sorry I don't understand your argument. An experiment of allowing a 1kg lead mass travelling at 1m/s to collide with a similar stationary one so that they both travel away with half the velocity does not need any "air and molecules" for the interaction. But in order to bring them to the same velocity a force between them does need to be applied. If this force is frictional, then the energy obviously turns into heat. Similarly if the force results in the lead being forced to change shape, then the energy appears as heat (try breaking a reasonable diameter steel wire by flexing it back and forth with a pair of pliers until it fatigues and fractures - then touch the flexed section to see how hot it has become!) There can be no paradoxes.. In short, elastic collisions conserve net energy, but not net momentum - try calculating the same interactions fully elastically and you'll necessarily be invoking a rise in momentum. The same interaction (one moving mass attaching to a stationary one so that they both move away joined) *cannot* occur elastically unless you can think of some mechanism to absorb the kinetic energy - such as a spring acting between them and a ratchet to stop the spring from pushing them apart again afterwards. Then when you do the calculation you discover that the kinetic energy loss has become potential energy stored in the ratcheted spring. The energy spread-sheet always balances perfectly or you have made a mistake. Conversely, inelastic ones conserve net momentum, but not energy. This loss, by the very nature of its constituent terms and conserved quantities, is non-dissipative. Only its non-reversibility with respect to time prevents easy access to energy gains. This is entropy, albeit acting on a level beyond strict 'thermodynamics'. Your language here seems a bit unusual. "Inelastic" is usually understood to be "dissipative" almost by definition - heat generation being the result of inelastic and dissipative mechanisms. Mainstream physics still regards heat energy to be unrecoverable although there is no good reason except statistical ones why this should not be possible. Like i've always said, the explicit instructions on how thwart CoE and CoM are implicit within their terms of enforcement. Read between the lines, they tell you precisely what not to do if you don't want to get a unity result. Without this kung fu, i would never have been so stupid as to take a second look at Bessler's claim, let alone tackle it with confidence. But with it, the evidence of Leibniz et al meant that i couldn't fail. Success was guaranteed. There had to be an unnoticed symmetry break riding through the middle of classical mechanics, an elephant in the custard, that with a little determination could be tracked and cornered... and now i've bagged it. Not just wounded it. Not "close, but i'm running out of hamsters". There was a fully-grown African bull elephant perfectly concealed in the custard bowl, and i've totally harnessed it, by "accelerating without accelerating", and now nobody will believe me and it's so unfair etc. Sorry but since you are talking of *textbook physics*, all physicists will be absolutely certain that you have made a simple mistake based on some conceptual misunderstanding. Given the opportunity, (and if they are not fed up with fielding crackpot questions) they will be happy to point it out to you to save you from further embarrassment.