It is difficult to grasp what you are saying in regard to the hydrogen, but it might sink in with time as my subconscious grinds away on your ideas.
I have problems with that little demon guy and suspect that there is a way to sort the hot atoms from the cold ones. I actually consider nature having already built such a device for us in the form of radiation. Why would the emission of IR from a energized molecule not be an example? The effective energy of the gas system is reduced by this emission since it only originates from the energized molecules and not the colder less energetic ones. If the object is to take heat out of a system as the end result then it has been achieved. We can capture the IR at a distant point and convert it into electricity while the source gas has become less energized. The demon has been pushed aside by this process since we found a way around the beast. I do not consider this process a violation of the COE. It might seem problematic from a thermodynamic point of view since it involves taking energy from just one source and not using the difference in energy between two sources to get work. In a way, the other source is empty space which is lower in energy. I have tried to get around the demon in another manner. Why not substitute very large simulated atoms (like pool balls) for the real thing? If the pool balls exhibit inelastic collisions and can be trapped within a cavity of some nature, they should be a stand in for atoms. I am sure we could find some way to separate out the fast moving pool balls by using less energy than required to operate the separation mechanism. This seems like a scaling issue. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Roarty, Francis X <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 1:47 pm Subject: : Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Dave, I think you have it pretty much correct but like you don’t know if it has ever been proven other than as an extension to the small proven dilations accumulated by satellites. I would also agree that distance is modified but this again is due to dilation and would only be from our perspective due to Lorentzian contraction of the spaceship as it approaches the horizon. It should be a straightforward Pythagorean relationship between space and time where one can not deviate without the other V^2/C^2. I posit the hydrogen in a Casimir cavity reflects the same relationship between itself and our macro world here on earth as we perceive between ourselves and the spaceship nearing the horizon. This is what Jan Naudts was saying in his 2005 paper suggesting the Mills hydrino was relativistic hydrogen.. not in the sense Mills used regarding hydrogen being ejected by the suns corona which is still the typical Lorentzian contraction of an object approaching C or the gravitational equivalent of an event horizon but rather the differential of an object experiencing a gravitational hill/deficit relative to the macro world where from it’s perspective as “normal” we in the macro world appear to be the dilated objects slowing down to a near stop. I propose that changes in the “height” of a gravity hill are the basis for catalytic action like we see in skeletal cats and nano powders such that it is the geometry of the conductive metal that establishes the environment in opposition to stiction… the hydrogen, like the spaceship approaching the environment is merely reacting to the already established environment…. This may be the power source behind all the anomalous claims on Ni-H in contradiction to COE because COE falsely assumes that a HUP trap [maxwellian demon is impossible] – it may be impossible to fabricate but if nature can be induced to naturally assemble I believe you can create heat by putting forces like Casimir stiction into opposition with random gas motion…. It just takes a very craftily set stage to avoid self destruction o the props. Regards Fran From: ChemE Stewart [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:38 PM To: [email protected] Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Dave, I believe the mass of the ship is converted to energy (thru radiation) as it approaches which is then converted to entropy and increases the surface of the hole. The "information" becomes completely scattered by the time it reaches the surface. Until you reach the surface, the black hole is doing "work" on you we call "gravity", which is an entropic force. Stewart Darkmattersalot.com On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider the implications of this system. I think you are correct in the assumption that the mass of the ship does not reach infinity at the horizon. If we assume that no energy is created out of thin air then the mass of the ship must increase significantly as it reaches the boundary. This must be true since the velocity of the ship becomes zero at that point and all of the gravitational energy due to the initial location of the ship at the beginning point of its journey must be converted into mass. This could be calculated, and it definitely is not infinity but is substantially greater than when at rest in our vicinity. Again, you need to think about each observer and what they perceive. We need to have our laws of physics to be in effect during our observations and the other guys need the same. So far, the only way that this seems likely is for time dilation to work overtime. I suspect that the red shift is a stand in for time dilation on board the ship, but I do not recall seeing that proven. If it is true, then we have an easy technique to employ. I now tend to think that the space guy can impact with the black hole, but that it will take forever for this to happen from our perspective. If he had a jar full of muons, they would never decay as far as we could tell while he is near that boundary. Too bad for him, but the muons would not be able to save him from extinction in a very short time period. Then again, he might live for essentially ever from our point of view which is an extension to his normal life span in our environment. My father used to tell us kids that time passes faster and faster as you get older. Now I understand what he meant. The curvature of space might somehow enter into this discussion but I am not sure how to think of its effect. I am confident that time dilation is a factor, but perhaps the distances are modified as well. That is an area to consider. You know what I think of sources that say that things are meaningless don't you? That translates into I do not know and please do not ask me again. It is late and my mind is becoming mush. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]>; vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:09 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 10:23 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: >We both agree that nothing will happen to the ship itself unless >tidal forces tear it apart. That has not been an issue and I am not >sure of why you start with the assumption that I think it will. You >must have misunderstood my statement. I suppose I could have made >it in a clearer manner. I never objected to the thought experiment, nor thought that this would be an issue. We can imagine a teeny-tiny spaceship that is super strong. and we can imagine a really big black hole, so that the curvature doesn't bite us. >The ship itself will never think it reaches the ultimate boundary >but we will see radiation emitted by it become red shifted until no >more detectable energy comes our way from it. I'm no longer confident of any of the explanations. The holonauts never see the singularity, but if they are travelling toward it, in their own time, they see an event horizon ahead of them, becoming smaller more and more intense, I'd think. However, lots of sources say that events beyond the event horizon are meaningless. Part of what is frying my brain here is the gravitational field at the event horizon. The event horizon is defined as the boundary where gravity is so intense that light cannot take a path that increases its distance from the center of gravity. That's geometrical. If the holonauts pass the originally observed event horizon, and see a receded event horizon in front of them, how would the light paths have shifted? It doesn't seem that time dilation would do this. The sense I keep coming up with is that the event horizon is the place beyond which light cannot escape to the *external universe*, which means infinite distance, I found one article that refers to this. Not that it cannot escape to some greater distance. But that contradicts the "gravity so intense" statements, and the light path statements. I need to examine doppler shift from gravity more closely. I clearly don't understand the extreme case, where light not only can't escape to infinity (equivalent to escape velocity), but it can't go up *at all*. That means that the shift takes place immediately on emission, not upon rise through a gravitational field. >That is what I refer to as blink out of existence, not actually be >destroyed. This process with take an infinite amount of time to >complete so I guess theoretically it is always detectable until the >noise hides what is left of the low frequency energy. Where do you get the "infinite amount of time" from? It seems you are claiming that *our time* slows down. >The mass of the ship will appear to become infinite to us as it >fades into the noise and the spaceman will appear to freeze in place >due to time dilation. From our perspective, the ship becomes frozen >at what we believe is the event horizon, although the other closer >observers will not agree with our location determination. I don't think so. The mass of the ship is incorporated into the mass of the black hole, and that's not infinite. The information coming to us from the ship, as I mention, would be doppler-shifted, but the velocity of the ship would be increasing, acceleration due to gravity. How would we know where the ship is? I mentioned how: I assume we know the gravitational field, and the ship is sending us photons. If they are gammas, they'll last longer! From the doppler shift in them we will know where they are in the field. (They will not be travelling at relativistic velocities.) As they approach the event horizon, the signal will be increasingly red-shifted, and it will end when they cross the event horizon. The photons still travel at the speed of light. They are not slowed, they are doppler-shifted. >Once before a long time ago you strongly disagreed with the idea of >time dilation for a traveler as he enters a black hole. I suspect >that you now realize that this must occur. Sure. I don't recall disagreeing with it, however. Just to be sure we are on the same page, the traveller does not experience time dilation. We observe it when we observe a traveller clock. Time dilation does *not* mean that the traveller appears to slow down. >Yes, I see that now you understand that the spaceman nearing what we >considered the event horizon sees to the other side. I understand what you *mean* but I'm not relating this to the traveller nearing the event horizon. They don't see beyond *their* event horizon, that's clear. The question I'm getting is how the event horizon is located. Does the curvature of space depend on where we are? There is something we are not considering here. >He can continue to communicate with the first guy that started ahead
