OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider the implications of this system. I think you are correct in the assumption that the mass of the ship does not reach infinity at the horizon. If we assume that no energy is created out of thin air then the mass of the ship must increase significantly as it reaches the boundary. This must be true since the velocity of the ship becomes zero at that point and all of the gravitational energy due to the initial location of the ship at the beginning point of its journey must be converted into mass. This could be calculated, and it definitely is not infinity but is substantially greater than when at rest in our vicinity.
Again, you need to think about each observer and what they perceive. We need to have our laws of physics to be in effect during our observations and the other guys need the same. So far, the only way that this seems likely is for time dilation to work overtime. I suspect that the red shift is a stand in for time dilation on board the ship, but I do not recall seeing that proven. If it is true, then we have an easy technique to employ. I now tend to think that the space guy can impact with the black hole, but that it will take forever for this to happen from our perspective. If he had a jar full of muons, they would never decay as far as we could tell while he is near that boundary. Too bad for him, but the muons would not be able to save him from extinction in a very short time period. Then again, he might live for essentially ever from our point of view which is an extension to his normal life span in our environment. My father used to tell us kids that time passes faster and faster as you get older. Now I understand what he meant. The curvature of space might somehow enter into this discussion but I am not sure how to think of its effect. I am confident that time dilation is a factor, but perhaps the distances are modified as well. That is an area to consider. You know what I think of sources that say that things are meaningless don't you? That translates into I do not know and please do not ask me again. It is late and my mind is becoming mush. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <a...@lomaxdesign.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:09 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 10:23 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: >We both agree that nothing will happen to the ship itself unless >tidal forces tear it apart. That has not been an issue and I am not >sure of why you start with the assumption that I think it will. You >must have misunderstood my statement. I suppose I could have made >it in a clearer manner. I never objected to the thought experiment, nor thought that this would be an issue. We can imagine a teeny-tiny spaceship that is super strong. and we can imagine a really big black hole, so that the curvature doesn't bite us. >The ship itself will never think it reaches the ultimate boundary >but we will see radiation emitted by it become red shifted until no >more detectable energy comes our way from it. I'm no longer confident of any of the explanations. The holonauts never see the singularity, but if they are travelling toward it, in their own time, they see an event horizon ahead of them, becoming smaller more and more intense, I'd think. However, lots of sources say that events beyond the event horizon are meaningless. Part of what is frying my brain here is the gravitational field at the event horizon. The event horizon is defined as the boundary where gravity is so intense that light cannot take a path that increases its distance from the center of gravity. That's geometrical. If the holonauts pass the originally observed event horizon, and see a receded event horizon in front of them, how would the light paths have shifted? It doesn't seem that time dilation would do this. The sense I keep coming up with is that the event horizon is the place beyond which light cannot escape to the *external universe*, which means infinite distance, I found one article that refers to this. Not that it cannot escape to some greater distance. But that contradicts the "gravity so intense" statements, and the light path statements. I need to examine doppler shift from gravity more closely. I clearly don't understand the extreme case, where light not only can't escape to infinity (equivalent to escape velocity), but it can't go up *at all*. That means that the shift takes place immediately on emission, not upon rise through a gravitational field. >That is what I refer to as blink out of existence, not actually be >destroyed. This process with take an infinite amount of time to >complete so I guess theoretically it is always detectable until the >noise hides what is left of the low frequency energy. Where do you get the "infinite amount of time" from? It seems you are claiming that *our time* slows down. >The mass of the ship will appear to become infinite to us as it >fades into the noise and the spaceman will appear to freeze in place >due to time dilation. From our perspective, the ship becomes frozen >at what we believe is the event horizon, although the other closer >observers will not agree with our location determination. I don't think so. The mass of the ship is incorporated into the mass of the black hole, and that's not infinite. The information coming to us from the ship, as I mention, would be doppler-shifted, but the velocity of the ship would be increasing, acceleration due to gravity. How would we know where the ship is? I mentioned how: I assume we know the gravitational field, and the ship is sending us photons. If they are gammas, they'll last longer! From the doppler shift in them we will know where they are in the field. (They will not be travelling at relativistic velocities.) As they approach the event horizon, the signal will be increasingly red-shifted, and it will end when they cross the event horizon. The photons still travel at the speed of light. They are not slowed, they are doppler-shifted. >Once before a long time ago you strongly disagreed with the idea of >time dilation for a traveler as he enters a black hole. I suspect >that you now realize that this must occur. Sure. I don't recall disagreeing with it, however. Just to be sure we are on the same page, the traveller does not experience time dilation. We observe it when we observe a traveller clock. Time dilation does *not* mean that the traveller appears to slow down. >Yes, I see that now you understand that the spaceman nearing what we >considered the event horizon sees to the other side. I understand what you *mean* but I'm not relating this to the traveller nearing the event horizon. They don't see beyond *their* event horizon, that's clear. The question I'm getting is how the event horizon is located. Does the curvature of space depend on where we are? There is something we are not considering here. >He can continue to communicate with the first guy that started ahead >of him on the journey and report back to us. That is what I have >been trying to prove all along. This involves a paradox. There is contradictory information out there, as far as I can tell, or we are interpreting it in a way that leads to contradictions. >Who said off topic discussions are not interesting and educational? Not I! >Dave > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <a...@lomaxdesign.com> >To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> >Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 9:53 pm >Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon > > >At 05:55 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: > >That makes it a bit more complicated. I was referring to the exact > >radius at which light can not escape from a non spinning black hole > >as observed from far away. If a space ship reaches that radius from > >our perspective, it would totally blink out of existence. > >No. Actually, nothing happens to the spaceship. Neglecting tidal >forces or other effects from the environment near a black hole, it >doesn't even experience the event horizon as anything special. >Ummm.... it might start to see things that can't be seen from >outside. Like what is in the hole and what is on the other side. > >What happens is that the space ship becomes unobservable to us, >except the mass is still there. The mass of the black hole increases >by it. If I'm correct, gravity is the only observable that remains. >
