Here is an ORNL report from 1952 about heat released by HHO through a catalytic converter:
http://web.ornl.gov/info/reports/1952/3445603529607.pdf Title is: The Reaction Between Hydrogen and Oxygen by Catalysis and the Thermal Reaction - Brad On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 2:50 PM, James Bowery <jabow...@gmail.com> wrote: > Well there have been other recent examples from very "authoritative" > sources: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg88835.html > > So I felt a general comment was in order. > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Lennart Thornros <lenn...@thornros.com> > wrote: >> >> James >> Ok I am not so sensitive so it is OK- but felt uncalled for as I preempted >> my weakness:) >> Hard to follow if you do not say to whom. >> >> Best Regards , >> Lennart Thornros >> >> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com >> lenn...@thornros.com >> +1 916 436 1899 >> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 >> >> “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a >> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:39 PM, James Bowery <jabow...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Lennart, my comment wasn't directed at you but at Axil's question: "Do I >>> need to spell this out any further?" After giving temperature numbers as >>> though they represented energy or power. I tend to dismiss Axil's >>> asserted-as-fact speculations posing as theory, if for no other reason than >>> their tone -- but this takes the cake. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Lennart Thornros <lenn...@thornros.com> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks James, >>>> I can use the thesaurus if the word was hard. I could not understand the >>>> way you used it. >>>> I think the quantities are comparable. They can be measured in any >>>> pressure r volume dimension as far as I am concerned. >>>> What I did not understand was what you are comparing. I did not mean to >>>> compare anything. Did I ? >>>> I take it as if you just supported Ed Storms post. I understand he is >>>> saying that it is a chemical (catalytic) action in the welding example. >>>> I have no experience of HHO and therefore I supposed that if there was >>>> enough heat capacity in the gas (HHO) to heat the metal it should be enough >>>> to heat the relatively small amount of gas (with a much smaller heat >>>> capacity than metal). Yes, that might be ignorant but it is not a very >>>> 'high >>>> ceiling' if you have problem overseeing that kind of ignorance. >>>> >>>> >>>> Best Regards , >>>> Lennart Thornros >>>> >>>> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com >>>> lenn...@thornros.com >>>> +1 916 436 1899 >>>> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 >>>> >>>> “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a >>>> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:19 AM, James Bowery <jabow...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros >>>>> <lenn...@thornros.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker >>>>>> in the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not >>>>>> know >>>>>> what you mean with "incommensurable quantities". Are you just supporting >>>>>> Ed >>>>>> Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand >>>>>> that, >>>>>> it seems without connection to anything. >>>>>> However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and >>>>>> has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I >>>>>> think >>>>>> I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful >>>>>> thinking or in worst case scam. >>>>>> Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now >>>>>> more or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My >>>>>> thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like >>>>>> 80 >>>>>> -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR >>>>>> result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or >>>>>> so to >>>>>> compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the energy >>>>>> both to the loop back and to consumption. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best Regards , >>>>>> Lennart Thornros >>>>>> >>>>>> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com >>>>>> lenn...@thornros.com >>>>>> +1 916 436 1899 >>>>>> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 >>>>>> >>>>>> “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a >>>>>> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery <jabow...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in >>>>>>> someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a >>>>>>> blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical >>>>>>> wiring or heating and air conditioning. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms >>>>>>> <stor...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high >>>>>>>> temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is >>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>> concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs. >>>>>>>> In the >>>>>>>> case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied >>>>>>>> directly >>>>>>>> to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin >>>>>>>> feels no >>>>>>>> heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction >>>>>>>> produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases >>>>>>>> produced by heating the gas. In contrast, gasoline produces a large >>>>>>>> increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline >>>>>>>> combustion. More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been >>>>>>>> applied >>>>>>>> over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly >>>>>>>> efficient. >>>>>>>> However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way. >>>>>>>> Even >>>>>>>> if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra >>>>>>>> push to >>>>>>>> the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a >>>>>>>> permanent >>>>>>>> increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by >>>>>>>> increased >>>>>>>> temperature. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ed Storms >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Axil, >>>>>>>> I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory. >>>>>>>> I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in >>>>>>>> autos. It has never taken any commercial format. >>>>>>>> I have a few questions though: >>>>>>>> 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be >>>>>>>> logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode >>>>>>>> in an >>>>>>>> instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the >>>>>>>> temperature and >>>>>>>> therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works? >>>>>>>> 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with >>>>>>>> higher temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and >>>>>>>> 20C on >>>>>>>> the exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical >>>>>>>> motor when >>>>>>>> it comes to COP. >>>>>>>> 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be >>>>>>>> feasible as it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own >>>>>>>> input. >>>>>>>> Is that correct? >>>>>>>> I am OK with a lesson in basics:) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best Regards , >>>>>>>> Lennart Thornros >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com >>>>>>>> lenn...@thornros.com >>>>>>>> +1 916 436 1899 >>>>>>>> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a >>>>>>>> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” >>>>>>>> PJM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil <janap...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn >>>>>>>>> the skin of your hand. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals >>>>>>>>> act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary >>>>>>>>> layer >>>>>>>>> between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or >>>>>>>>> oxygen. >>>>>>>>> The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA >>>>>>>>> dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of >>>>>>>>> reflectivity. This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> will vaporize tungsten. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is >>>>>>>>> not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the >>>>>>>>> surface >>>>>>>>> of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be >>>>>>>>> readily burned by the HHO flame. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - >>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR >>>>>>>>> effect >>>>>>>>> is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, >>>>>>>>> 10706 °F) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only >>>>>>>>> 2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect >>>>>>>>> of the evanescent wave. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
