Thanks to both of you, Philippe and Pascal, for some challenging insight, got me thinking a lot.
Yes there's a lot of stuff for Java, that's really great. That's also why I like Scala and Clojure so much, but the frameworks aren't ready yet. Do you have any experience with Lift? Or Play? One thing I really like about RoR is Ruby, it's so much better than Java. Is Java really a good language for a startup? I'm not sure. I also stumbled across Sinatra, what a revelation... I've read your link, Philippe, but there are also some interesting comments... Deployment on the other hand is one of the things with WebObjects which gives me a constant headache, WOMonitor has a lot of issues (e.g. doesn't restart scheduled apps, or a lot of time outs) and I never managed to deploy a WO app in a Servlet container. Bye, - Marius On 25.09.2011, at 15:51, Philippe Rabier wrote: > Agree with Pascal. > > And think about all interesting good quality framework available everywhere > (apache projects, quartz scheduler, Jboss community projects … and of course > wonder). > > If I dare, I would say that if your project entices enough, it should be not > too difficult to hire java developers. The good point, if they don't know WO, > they bring with them other skills you maybe don't have. That was the case for > me. > > About RoR, we made a big development with this technology for a one of our > client but we didn't go further. There are beautifull things (unit testing, > deployment, migration…) but we saw also many crap projects developed quickly. > And ruby is a very nice language but not so easy to understand quickly. > > And I read that rails 3.x is very different from rails 2.x. So would you > start a new project with rails 2 because there are more developers? No easy > answer. > > Note there are also big discussions in the rails community: > http://blog.stevecoast.com/what-the-hell-is-happening-to-Rails > > Regarding your last question, I don't have good answers because for all the > reasons I gave you, I start new projects with Wonder. But we start to look at > node.js because it's a very promising technology IMHO. > > Philippe > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 25 sept. 2011, at 13:36, Pascal Robert <[email protected]> wrote: > >> One thing that I like a lot with Java (including WO) is that deployment on >> multiple platforms is much easier that other environments. This is >> especially true if you are selling products that customers will install it >> themselves. Try to install a tool like CalendarServer (Python-based) on >> CentOS and see how much pain it is. Windows support for node.js was added >> in... July 2011, and it's declared "beta" quality. >> >> And Java = less breaking APIs. It's incredible the number of times of moving >> from, say Python 2.4 to 2.5, will break APIs. Again, Java people try to >> avoid that. And Java also have a lot of quality libraries. Search for MySQL >> for node.js, at least 5 "drivers" exist. So that means you will probably >> have to try the 5 of them to see which one works best. >> >> Java and WO are not perfect, but I prefer something stable than API and >> deployment problems. >> >>> Hi Philippe, >>> >>> thanks for your answer, interesting points. >>> >>> It would be only one WO developer, joined by a Front-end developer and a >>> third developer yet to be hired. >>> >>> It's easy to find Java developers, the question is how many of them >>> actually want to learn WebObjects. I'm the CTO in a small company and this >>> is actually a big difficulty when hiring people. Some are interested, most >>> are not. >>> >>> My friend has basic knowledge in Rails and some other technologies. I think >>> he won't start until december so he could manage to get up to speed until >>> then. Of curse it's not the same level as his current knowledge of WO. >>> The main argument in favor of Rails would be that it's quite easy to find >>> competent people who already know the framework. >>> >>> I'll also let him know to look into Node.js. Do you have hands-on >>> experience, is it mature enough? Maybe I should also suggest using Clojure >>> and ClojureScript, but it would be even harder to find people for that :) >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> - Marius >>> >>> >>> On 25.09.2011, at 12:06, Philippe Rabier wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Marius, >>>> >>>> I have several developers who were new at WO in 2 different companies. The >>>> main point is that they knew java. >>>> >>>> All the problem talked by Pascal and other regarding documentation for >>>> example are important for a new developer that can not be trained/coached >>>> by another one. But that's not your case. For example, we hired a 10 years >>>> java skilled developer who used jdbc at low level (writing SQL code by >>>> hand) in their previous companies. Believe me that he found WO "magical". >>>> He was able to write code in less than a month. And i saw several other >>>> developers like him. >>>> >>>> We have also a student for 6 month who comes from University where he >>>> learnt a lot of java and it was a matter of weeks. >>>> >>>> If you are 2 WO developers, I would recommend you start alone because you >>>> will go faster (hiring people, training… takes time). If you need 10 >>>> developers, it's not a lean startup ;-) >>>> >>>> When you have existing code (clean and with some pieces of java doc), it >>>> will help you to include new developers because it will be easy for you to >>>> explain, you will have include your own patterns, … >>>> >>>> About RoR or other stuffs like PHP, if you don't know them, don't use >>>> them. You can't be fast and learn something new at the same time. If you >>>> know only COBOL, use COBOL. But if you want to consider something new, >>>> look at node.js. For me, and I'm not alone to think that: using the sane >>>> language on the client and server side is a key factor in productivity and >>>> all the team speak the same language. >>>> >>>> Philippe >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On 24 sept. 2011, at 20:38, Marius Soutier <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi there, >>>>> >>>>> I know this a difficult and opinionated topic, but I have been asked by a >>>>> friend what technology to choose for a Lean Startup (= 3 months until the >>>>> first minimum viable product). While he and I know WebObjects quite well, >>>>> I think it's safe to say there are only few people here in Germany who >>>>> know it at all. I'm personally convinced (and have seen this affirmed by >>>>> the two WOWODC talks about Lean Startup and Fluffy Bunny, excellent talks >>>>> by the way) that WO itself is a great technology to get things up and >>>>> running very fast. However, what if the business grows and he needs to >>>>> hire more people? >>>>> >>>>> My first question is - do you easily find skilled people who are willing >>>>> to learn WebObjects? What's your experience on this? >>>>> >>>>> And the second question would be - how long does it take them to be >>>>> productive, i.e. write working code without much help. I'm assuming here >>>>> the person knows Java quite well and is eager to learn new stuff. >>>>> >>>>> The alternative would be Ruby on Rails, which seems quite popular in >>>>> startups nowadays. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your insight! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Marius >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>>>> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) >>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>>>> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/prabier%40me.com >>>>> >>>>> This email sent to [email protected] >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca >>> >>> This email sent to [email protected] >> _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [email protected]
