Jimmy, if this is genuinely how you are comfortable behaving, intentionally, and if this is the standard that you wish to set, I would ask you to do it in a new community. Resign from the Board. Abrogate your status as a founder. Go create these standards somewhere new, with people who have signed up for them.
*Unfortunately, I'm going to have to second this pretty loudly. --- Kevin Gorman On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 5:48 PM, David Emrany <david.emr...@gmail.com> wrote: > Oliver > > I have also been in the movement for over a decade, and I am sick of > people on all sides distorting facts, gaming the system / manipulating > the community. > > IMO, this came to a boil in Dec 2006 when WMF altered its structure > and purpose and relocated followed by the "COO scandal"  and other > things. > > I'm glad that community people are now revisiting those early days and > trying to figger out how it all happened so secretly and without a > whimper from the community reps on the BoT who we entrusted to > protect our stake in our work,and who let us down very badly. > > David > >  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/13/wikimedia_coo_convicted_felon/ > > On 3/10/16, Oliver Keyes <ironho...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I've been in the Wikimedia movement for over a decade now. I've seen > > Wikimedia-l. I've seen internal-l. I've had death and sexual assault > > threats show up in my inbox. And this, /this/, is genuinely the most > > horrified I've ever been by any message I've seen yet. > > > > This email is not a good faith email. it is not, despite the > > neutrality of its language, a civil email. It's the kind of blinkered, > > detached, ultrarationalist gaslighting I associate with people in > > LessWrong. > > > > No assumption of good faith. No discussion of the issues. No admission > > that different people can legitimately and normally interpret things > > in different ways. The framing of things so that the options are that > > James is a liar, stupid, or suffering from PTSD. Whether deliberately > > or not, it is deeply manipulative and frames the entire discussion > > with assertions that James is disconnected from reality. > > > > Jimmy, if this is genuinely how you are comfortable behaving, > > intentionally, and if > > this is the standard that you wish to set, I would ask you to do it in > > a new community. Resign from the Board. Abrogate your status as a > > founder. Go create these standards somewhere new, with people who have > > signed up for them. > > > > And if you instead don't understand why this > > sort of message is chilling and terrifying and incredibly problematic, > > you need to step back from all of these discussions for a time and go > > find someone who wants to explain it to you. Because this is not > > productive, and this is not how leaders behave. I appreciate you think > > you *have* to participate as some kind of movement moral compass, but, > > you aren't, and you don't. And even if you did, the morality > > demonstrated by that email is, I suspect, not something any of us want > > a part of. > > > >  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting > >  for other examples of this kind of language, and the thing my > > brain immediately jumped to, see how ultrarationalists deal with > > people asking if individuals could please stop harassing them for > > disagreeing with an idea > > http://lesswrong.com/lw/lb3/breaking_the_vicious_cycle/bnrr > > > > On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Pete Forsyth <petefors...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Below is a message Jimmy Wales sent to James Heilman and myself on Feb. > >> 29. > >> I mentioned the existence of this message on the list on March 2: > >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-March/082901.html > >> > >> I feel this message can provide important insight into the dynamics > >> surrounding James H.'s dismissal, and various people have expressed > >> interest in seeing it, so I'm forwarding it to the list. (For what it's > >> worth, I did check with James H.; he had no objection to my sharing it.) > >> > >> For context, as I understand it, Jimmy's message was more or less in > >> response to this list message of mine: > >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/082764.html > >> > >> -Pete > >> [[User:Peteforsyth]] > >> > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> > >> *From: *Jimmy Wales > >> > >> *Date: *February 29, 2016 6:21:46 AM > >> > >> *To: *Pete Forsyth,James Heilman > >> > >> *Subject: **A conversation?* > >> > >> > >> James, I wonder if you'd be up for a one on one conversation. I've been > >> struck in a positive way by some of the things that Pete has said and I > >> realize that moving things forward on wikimedia-l, being sniped at by > >> people who are as interested in creating drama as anything else, isn't > >> really conducive to reaching more understanding. > >> > >> I have some questions for you - real, sincere, and puzzled questions. > >> Some of the things that you have said strike me as very obviously out of > >> line with the facts. And I wonder how to reconcile that. > >> > >> One hypothesis is that you're just a liar. I have a hard time with that > >> one. > >> > >> Another hypothesis is that you have a poor memory or low emotional > >> intelligence or something like that - you seem to say things that just > >> don't make sense and which attempt to lead people to conclusions that > >> are clearly not true. > >> > >> Another hypothesis is that the emotional trauma of all this has colored > >> your perceptions on certain details. > >> > >> As an example, and I'm not going to dig up the exact quotes, you said > >> publicly that you wrote to me in October that we were building a > >> Google-competing search engine and that I more or less said that I'm > >> fine with it. Go back and read our exchange. There's just now way to > >> get that from what I said - Indeed, I specifically said that we are NOT > >> building a Google-competing search engine, and explained the much lower > >> and much less complex ambition of improving search and discovery. > >> > >> As another example, you published a timeline starting with Wikia Search. > >> It's really hard for me to interpret that in any other way than to try > >> to lead people down the path of the conspiracy theorists that I had a > >> pet project to compete with Google which led to a secret project to > >> biuld a search engine, etc. etc. You know as well as I do that's a > >> false narrative, so it's very hard for me to charitably interpret that. > >> > >> Anyway these are the kinds of things that I struggle with. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > >> New messages to: Wikimediaemail@example.com > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > New messages to: Wikimediafirstname.lastname@example.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimediaemail@example.com > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimediafirstname.lastname@example.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>