I'm really not sure how this relates to this thread. If you're interested in discussing the decision in 06, there's another thread for that.
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 8:48 PM, David Emrany <david.emr...@gmail.com> wrote: > Oliver > > I have also been in the movement for over a decade, and I am sick of > people on all sides distorting facts, gaming the system / manipulating > the community. > > IMO, this came to a boil in Dec 2006 when WMF altered its structure > and purpose and relocated followed by the "COO scandal" [1] and other > things. > > I'm glad that community people are now revisiting those early days and > trying to figger out how it all happened so secretly and without a > whimper from the community reps on the BoT who we entrusted to > protect our stake in our work,and who let us down very badly. > > David > > [1] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/13/wikimedia_coo_convicted_felon/ > > On 3/10/16, Oliver Keyes <ironho...@gmail.com> wrote: >> I've been in the Wikimedia movement for over a decade now. I've seen >> Wikimedia-l. I've seen internal-l. I've had death and sexual assault >> threats show up in my inbox. And this, /this/, is genuinely the most >> horrified I've ever been by any message I've seen yet. >> >> This email is not a good faith email. it is not, despite the >> neutrality of its language, a civil email. It's the kind of blinkered, >> detached, ultrarationalist gaslighting[0] I associate with people in >> LessWrong.[1] >> >> No assumption of good faith. No discussion of the issues. No admission >> that different people can legitimately and normally interpret things >> in different ways. The framing of things so that the options are that >> James is a liar, stupid, or suffering from PTSD. Whether deliberately >> or not, it is deeply manipulative and frames the entire discussion >> with assertions that James is disconnected from reality. >> >> Jimmy, if this is genuinely how you are comfortable behaving, >> intentionally, and if >> this is the standard that you wish to set, I would ask you to do it in >> a new community. Resign from the Board. Abrogate your status as a >> founder. Go create these standards somewhere new, with people who have >> signed up for them. >> >> And if you instead don't understand why this >> sort of message is chilling and terrifying and incredibly problematic, >> you need to step back from all of these discussions for a time and go >> find someone who wants to explain it to you. Because this is not >> productive, and this is not how leaders behave. I appreciate you think >> you *have* to participate as some kind of movement moral compass, but, >> you aren't, and you don't. And even if you did, the morality >> demonstrated by that email is, I suspect, not something any of us want >> a part of. >> >> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting >> [1] for other examples of this kind of language, and the thing my >> brain immediately jumped to, see how ultrarationalists deal with >> people asking if individuals could please stop harassing them for >> disagreeing with an idea >> http://lesswrong.com/lw/lb3/breaking_the_vicious_cycle/bnrr >> >> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Pete Forsyth <petefors...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Below is a message Jimmy Wales sent to James Heilman and myself on Feb. >>> 29. >>> I mentioned the existence of this message on the list on March 2: >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-March/082901.html >>> >>> I feel this message can provide important insight into the dynamics >>> surrounding James H.'s dismissal, and various people have expressed >>> interest in seeing it, so I'm forwarding it to the list. (For what it's >>> worth, I did check with James H.; he had no objection to my sharing it.) >>> >>> For context, as I understand it, Jimmy's message was more or less in >>> response to this list message of mine: >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/082764.html >>> >>> -Pete >>> [[User:Peteforsyth]] >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> >>> *From: *Jimmy Wales >>> >>> *Date: *February 29, 2016 6:21:46 AM >>> >>> *To: *Pete Forsyth,James Heilman >>> >>> *Subject: **A conversation?* >>> >>> >>> James, I wonder if you'd be up for a one on one conversation. I've been >>> struck in a positive way by some of the things that Pete has said and I >>> realize that moving things forward on wikimedia-l, being sniped at by >>> people who are as interested in creating drama as anything else, isn't >>> really conducive to reaching more understanding. >>> >>> I have some questions for you - real, sincere, and puzzled questions. >>> Some of the things that you have said strike me as very obviously out of >>> line with the facts. And I wonder how to reconcile that. >>> >>> One hypothesis is that you're just a liar. I have a hard time with that >>> one. >>> >>> Another hypothesis is that you have a poor memory or low emotional >>> intelligence or something like that - you seem to say things that just >>> don't make sense and which attempt to lead people to conclusions that >>> are clearly not true. >>> >>> Another hypothesis is that the emotional trauma of all this has colored >>> your perceptions on certain details. >>> >>> As an example, and I'm not going to dig up the exact quotes, you said >>> publicly that you wrote to me in October that we were building a >>> Google-competing search engine and that I more or less said that I'm >>> fine with it. Go back and read our exchange. There's just now way to >>> get that from what I said - Indeed, I specifically said that we are NOT >>> building a Google-competing search engine, and explained the much lower >>> and much less complex ambition of improving search and discovery. >>> >>> As another example, you published a timeline starting with Wikia Search. >>> It's really hard for me to interpret that in any other way than to try >>> to lead people down the path of the conspiracy theorists that I had a >>> pet project to compete with Google which led to a secret project to >>> biuld a search engine, etc. etc. You know as well as I do that's a >>> false narrative, so it's very hard for me to charitably interpret that. >>> >>> Anyway these are the kinds of things that I struggle with. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
