I kind of am inclined to agree with Rogol. Let's try pointing it out nicely
first. There's a decent chance they'll say "Oops! Someone got carried away
with the stickers", and it's fixed just that easy.

If they actually do try to claim copyright, then there's something tangible
to criticize. But there's no harm in just telling them and seeing how they
respond before making a big public spectacle.

Todd

On Jul 28, 2017 2:49 PM, "Rogol Domedonfors" <domedonf...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Fae,
>
> That single sentence does not express "the issue" as I am sure you are well
> aware.  I imagine it does not entirely capture your views on this complex
> subject either.  So it is not really very helpful.
>
> Chris Keating's email depicts the likely course of events better than your
> over-excited claims of "fraudulent" conduct and it would be wise to
> actually find out what the BM's stance is before criticising it, or calling
> for social media campaigns to change it.
>
> "Rogol"
>
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:36 PM, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 28 July 2017 at 21:29, Rogol Domedonfors <domedonf...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > Fae
> > >
> > > When you use the headline "Copyfraud by the British Museum" (to
> describe
> > > the actions of some other organisation) and link to a discussion ([5]
> on
> > > your list) where you used the phrase "fraudulent copyright claim"
> > > twice,there is no other reasonable interpretation of your words than to
> > > understand that you are accusing the BM of fraudulent conduct.  That is
> > not
> > > a sensible basis for a serious discussion and I for one would not waste
> > my
> > > rime getting involved with it: indeed I do not support your accusation
> in
> > > the slightest.
> > >
> > > You state that as a charity the BM "must avoid copyfraud in any
> > > circumstances".
> > > Since you are using that word to cover, broadly speaking, any action to
> > > claim or protect intellectual property rights that you don't like, they
> > > clearly do not have any duty to behave exactly as you personally might
> > > happen to prefer.  The question of harmonising intellectual property
> > rights
> > > across various jurisdictions, the interaction between ownership of
> > physical
> > > objects and their artisitic and photographic representations, the legal
> > > duties of charity trustees to achieve their charitable aims and their
> > duty
> > > to maintain their ability to execute those aims, and all the other
> > elements
> > > of this discussion deserve more than a causally dismissive "I'm not
> going
> > > to write an essay".  If you can't be bothered to explain your
> position, I
> > > can't be bothered to support it.
> > >
> > > If you really think your attitude of "I'm right, everyone else is
> wrong,
> > > and I'm not going to bother to be polite to people who don't do what I
> > want
> > > the instant I demand it" is going to achieve anything practical, then I
> > am
> > > not going to waste my time helping you to waste the time of people who
> > have
> > > a job to do, which is rather more demanding, rather more worthwhile and
> > > rather less well paid than you choose to believe.
> >
> > Nobody believes that claiming copyright on 2,000 year old works is
> > something that a British National Institution would want to defend.
> > The issue is expressed in that one sentence, an essay is really not
> > needed to explain it. So "I'm right, everyone else is wrong" does not
> > describe what this is about.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Fae
> >
> > > "Rogol"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Rogol, thanks for your interest. I do not understand your reading
> > >> of my words. However when I wrote "the restrictions are
> > >> shockingly obvious cases of copyfraud" or "apparent ignorance over
> > >> copyright", neither can be interpreted as an accusation of fraudulent
> > >> conduct by anyone. If there is confusion about the word, I suggest
> > >> reading the Wikipedia article, it's quite interesting.[1]
> > >>
> > >> As for a reasoned case, I found the board level approved words on the
> > >> official website, describing why the British Museum exists (see my
> > >> original email), to be adequate enough to expect that their policies
> > >> and their implementation of policy must avoid copyfraud in any
> > >> circumstances. I'm not going to write an essay about something this
> > >> obvious, nor do I expect to have to doublethink myself into giving
> > >> positive reasons for a notice on an ancient artefact that claims it is
> > >> under copyright, just to potentially make a few middle-managers in the
> > >> administration of the two museums involved feel good about themselves.
> > >> They are probably paid well enough not to worry about my plain words,
> > >> or my simple-minded approach, failing to be politically diplomatic.
> > >>
> > >> As previously stated, I'd be only too happy for the BM or the THM to
> > >> get in touch. I'm even happy to have a chat over the phone as part of
> > >> taking steps to ensure that this exhibition is fixed, and cannot
> > >> reoccur in the display of future loans.
> > >>
> > >> Links
> > >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyfraud
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Fae
> > >> --
> > >> Fae
> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LGBT+
> > >> http://telegram.me/wmlgbt
> > >>
> > >> On 28 Jul 2017 19:09, "Rogol Domedonfors" <domedonf...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Fae,
> > >> >
> > >> > I do know some people at the BM but I'm not going to waste their or
> my
> > >> time
> > >> > on claims that start off by accusing them of "fraudlent" conduct and
> > >> finish
> > >> > with demands that they immediately reverse their policies, just
> > because
> > >> you
> > >> > say so.  If you were able to put together a reasoned case which
> showed
> > >> that
> > >> > you were aware of the positive and negative sides of their and your
> > >> > positions, I might reconsider -- but to be honest, I'm not going to.
> > >> >
> > >> > "Rogol"
> > >> >
> > >> > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > The Tullie House Museum in Carlisle has a number of objects on
> loan
> > >> > > from the British Museum,[3] and it appears that it is only those
> > >> > > objects that have any restrictions on photography. I took
> > photographs
> > >> > > of two of these (without any flash), as the restrictions are
> > >> > > shockingly obvious cases of copyfraud, and not for any reason that
> > >> > > might protect the works from damage.[1][2] It seems
> incomprehensible
> > >> > > as to why the British Museum would ever want to make copyright
> > claims
> > >> > > over ~2,000 year old works especially considering they are not a
> > >> > > money-making commercial enterprise, but a National institute and
> > >> > > charity, with a stated objective[4] that "the collection should be
> > put
> > >> > > to public use and be freely accessible".
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Does anyone have any ideas for action, or contacts in the Museum,
> > that
> > >> > > might result in a change of how loans from the BM are controlled?
> > I'm
> > >> > > wondering if the most effective way forward is to make some social
> > >> > > media fuss, to ensure the Trustees of the museum pay attention.
> The
> > >> > > reputational risk the apparent ignorance over copyright by the BM
> > >> > > loans management team seems something that would be easy to
> correct,
> > >> > > so changes to policy are overdue. My own experience of polite
> > private
> > >> > > letters to a Museum's lawyer demonstrates that you may as well
> save
> > >> > > hours of volunteer time by filing these in the bin, compared to
> the
> > >> > > sometimes highly effective use of a few pointed tweets written in
> a
> > >> > > few minutes and shared publicly and widely across social media.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Those of us Wikimedians who work closely with GLAMs tend to shy
> away
> > >> > > from any controversy, wanting the organizations to move towards
> > >> > > sharing our open knowledge goals for positive reasons. I'm happy
> to
> > >> > > try those types of collegiate ways of partnering, however drawing
> a
> > >> > > few lines in the sand by highlighting embarrassing case studies,
> > might
> > >> > > mean we make timely progress while activist dinosaurs like me are
> > >> > > still alive to see it happen.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Links
> > >> > > 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:British_Museum_2nd_
> > >> > > century_bronze_jug,_with_copyfraud_notice.jpg
> > >> > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:British_Museum_
> > >> > > Fortuna_statue,_with_copyfraud_notice.jpg
> > >> > > 3. Tullie House, Roman Frontier exhibition:
> > >> > > http://web.archive.org/web/20161030151228/www.
> > >> tulliehouse.co.uk/galleries-
> > >> > > collections/galleries/roman-frontier-gallery
> > >> > > 4. British Museum "about us":
> > >> > > http://web.archive.org/web/20170714042800/www.
> > >> britishmuseum.org/about_us/
> > >> > > management/about_us.aspx
> > >> > > 5. Commons village pump discussion:
> > >> > > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
> > >> > > British_Museum_and_blatant_copyfraud
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Contacts
> > >> > > * https://twitter.com/britishmuseum
> > >> > > * https://twitter.com/TullieHouse
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Thanks,
> > >> > > Fae
> > >> > > --
> > >> > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >>
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