Fae Since I pointed out that your posting https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Village_pump&diff=253364582&oldid=253360811 linked to in your first posting on the subject used that word, your latest email is clearly incorrect, and I think that terminates the discussion as far as I'm concerned.
"Rogol" On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:59 PM, Fæ <[email protected]> wrote: > Rogol, it's worth repeating that the only one here talking about > fraudulent conduct is yourself. > > I'll pass on repeating it again. What I originally posted is obviously > not getting read. > > Thanks, > Fae > > On 28 July 2017 at 21:49, Rogol Domedonfors <[email protected]> wrote: > > Fae, > > > > That single sentence does not express "the issue" as I am sure you are > well > > aware. I imagine it does not entirely capture your views on this complex > > subject either. So it is not really very helpful. > > > > Chris Keating's email depicts the likely course of events better than > your > > over-excited claims of "fraudulent" conduct and it would be wise to > > actually find out what the BM's stance is before criticising it, or > calling > > for social media campaigns to change it. > > > > "Rogol" > > > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 9:36 PM, Fæ <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> On 28 July 2017 at 21:29, Rogol Domedonfors <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > Fae > >> > > >> > When you use the headline "Copyfraud by the British Museum" (to > describe > >> > the actions of some other organisation) and link to a discussion ([5] > on > >> > your list) where you used the phrase "fraudulent copyright claim" > >> > twice,there is no other reasonable interpretation of your words than > to > >> > understand that you are accusing the BM of fraudulent conduct. That > is > >> not > >> > a sensible basis for a serious discussion and I for one would not > waste > >> my > >> > rime getting involved with it: indeed I do not support your > accusation in > >> > the slightest. > >> > > >> > You state that as a charity the BM "must avoid copyfraud in any > >> > circumstances". > >> > Since you are using that word to cover, broadly speaking, any action > to > >> > claim or protect intellectual property rights that you don't like, > they > >> > clearly do not have any duty to behave exactly as you personally might > >> > happen to prefer. The question of harmonising intellectual property > >> rights > >> > across various jurisdictions, the interaction between ownership of > >> physical > >> > objects and their artisitic and photographic representations, the > legal > >> > duties of charity trustees to achieve their charitable aims and their > >> duty > >> > to maintain their ability to execute those aims, and all the other > >> elements > >> > of this discussion deserve more than a causally dismissive "I'm not > going > >> > to write an essay". If you can't be bothered to explain your > position, I > >> > can't be bothered to support it. > >> > > >> > If you really think your attitude of "I'm right, everyone else is > wrong, > >> > and I'm not going to bother to be polite to people who don't do what I > >> want > >> > the instant I demand it" is going to achieve anything practical, then > I > >> am > >> > not going to waste my time helping you to waste the time of people who > >> have > >> > a job to do, which is rather more demanding, rather more worthwhile > and > >> > rather less well paid than you choose to believe. > >> > >> Nobody believes that claiming copyright on 2,000 year old works is > >> something that a British National Institution would want to defend. > >> The issue is expressed in that one sentence, an essay is really not > >> needed to explain it. So "I'm right, everyone else is wrong" does not > >> describe what this is about. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Fae > >> > >> > "Rogol" > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Fæ <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi Rogol, thanks for your interest. I do not understand your reading > >> >> of my words. However when I wrote "the restrictions are > >> >> shockingly obvious cases of copyfraud" or "apparent ignorance over > >> >> copyright", neither can be interpreted as an accusation of fraudulent > >> >> conduct by anyone. If there is confusion about the word, I suggest > >> >> reading the Wikipedia article, it's quite interesting.[1] > >> >> > >> >> As for a reasoned case, I found the board level approved words on the > >> >> official website, describing why the British Museum exists (see my > >> >> original email), to be adequate enough to expect that their policies > >> >> and their implementation of policy must avoid copyfraud in any > >> >> circumstances. I'm not going to write an essay about something this > >> >> obvious, nor do I expect to have to doublethink myself into giving > >> >> positive reasons for a notice on an ancient artefact that claims it > is > >> >> under copyright, just to potentially make a few middle-managers in > the > >> >> administration of the two museums involved feel good about > themselves. > >> >> They are probably paid well enough not to worry about my plain words, > >> >> or my simple-minded approach, failing to be politically diplomatic. > >> >> > >> >> As previously stated, I'd be only too happy for the BM or the THM to > >> >> get in touch. I'm even happy to have a chat over the phone as part of > >> >> taking steps to ensure that this exhibition is fixed, and cannot > >> >> reoccur in the display of future loans. > >> >> > >> >> Links > >> >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyfraud > >> >> > >> >> Thanks, > >> >> Fae > >> >> -- > >> >> Fae > >> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/LGBT+ > >> >> http://telegram.me/wmlgbt > >> >> > >> >> On 28 Jul 2017 19:09, "Rogol Domedonfors" <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > Fae, > >> >> > > >> >> > I do know some people at the BM but I'm not going to waste their > or my > >> >> time > >> >> > on claims that start off by accusing them of "fraudlent" conduct > and > >> >> finish > >> >> > with demands that they immediately reverse their policies, just > >> because > >> >> you > >> >> > say so. If you were able to put together a reasoned case which > showed > >> >> that > >> >> > you were aware of the positive and negative sides of their and your > >> >> > positions, I might reconsider -- but to be honest, I'm not going > to. > >> >> > > >> >> > "Rogol" > >> >> > > >> >> > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Fæ <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > The Tullie House Museum in Carlisle has a number of objects on > loan > >> >> > > from the British Museum,[3] and it appears that it is only those > >> >> > > objects that have any restrictions on photography. I took > >> photographs > >> >> > > of two of these (without any flash), as the restrictions are > >> >> > > shockingly obvious cases of copyfraud, and not for any reason > that > >> >> > > might protect the works from damage.[1][2] It seems > incomprehensible > >> >> > > as to why the British Museum would ever want to make copyright > >> claims > >> >> > > over ~2,000 year old works especially considering they are not a > >> >> > > money-making commercial enterprise, but a National institute and > >> >> > > charity, with a stated objective[4] that "the collection should > be > >> put > >> >> > > to public use and be freely accessible". > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Does anyone have any ideas for action, or contacts in the Museum, > >> that > >> >> > > might result in a change of how loans from the BM are controlled? > >> I'm > >> >> > > wondering if the most effective way forward is to make some > social > >> >> > > media fuss, to ensure the Trustees of the museum pay attention. > The > >> >> > > reputational risk the apparent ignorance over copyright by the BM > >> >> > > loans management team seems something that would be easy to > correct, > >> >> > > so changes to policy are overdue. My own experience of polite > >> private > >> >> > > letters to a Museum's lawyer demonstrates that you may as well > save > >> >> > > hours of volunteer time by filing these in the bin, compared to > the > >> >> > > sometimes highly effective use of a few pointed tweets written > in a > >> >> > > few minutes and shared publicly and widely across social media. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Those of us Wikimedians who work closely with GLAMs tend to shy > away > >> >> > > from any controversy, wanting the organizations to move towards > >> >> > > sharing our open knowledge goals for positive reasons. I'm happy > to > >> >> > > try those types of collegiate ways of partnering, however > drawing a > >> >> > > few lines in the sand by highlighting embarrassing case studies, > >> might > >> >> > > mean we make timely progress while activist dinosaurs like me are > >> >> > > still alive to see it happen. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Links > >> >> > > 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:British_Museum_2nd_ > >> >> > > century_bronze_jug,_with_copyfraud_notice.jpg > >> >> > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:British_Museum_ > >> >> > > Fortuna_statue,_with_copyfraud_notice.jpg > >> >> > > 3. Tullie House, Roman Frontier exhibition: > >> >> > > http://web.archive.org/web/20161030151228/www. > >> >> tulliehouse.co.uk/galleries- > >> >> > > collections/galleries/roman-frontier-gallery > >> >> > > 4. British Museum "about us": > >> >> > > http://web.archive.org/web/20170714042800/www. > >> >> britishmuseum.org/about_us/ > >> >> > > management/about_us.aspx > >> >> > > 5. Commons village pump discussion: > >> >> > > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump# > >> >> > > British_Museum_and_blatant_copyfraud > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Contacts > >> >> > > * https://twitter.com/britishmuseum > >> >> > > * https://twitter.com/TullieHouse > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Thanks, > >> >> > > Fae > >> >> > > -- > >> >> > > [email protected] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> >> wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> >> New messages to: [email protected] > >> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> > New messages to: [email protected] > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > , > >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > >> -- > >> [email protected] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> New messages to: [email protected] > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: [email protected] > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > -- > [email protected] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote. > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
