Thanks, Ariel, Denny, and Wikimedians,

Re your observations, I wonder, conceptually, if the end-to-end Translation
approach of Google Translate would render what you suggest, Ariel (e.g.
someone could translate an article from a language Wikipedia and this would
produce a single translation i.e. "one article for all
audiences"), whereas developing, conceptually, a different translator
approach - i.e. from Language A to Language B - conceptually, and perhaps
building such a hypothetical translator from Wikidata's Lexicographical
project, could yield  "information depending on their role in the
communities of the speakers of a
given language" (leaving aside the Wikimedia's ContentTranslation project
at this stage).

And I wonder  re 1), Denny and Ariel, beyond cultural contexts /
differences / borders, and your Portugal and Brazil example, whether one
might add in a country approach as well. Re 2 & 3) I wonder what role
interpretation plays in writing a NPOV article in any given language, and
vis-a-vis Abstract Wikipedia too, and how these NPOV interpretations offer
benefits in their great diversity (in terms of Wikipedia's goal: "to build
a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of
all knowledge"), and the benefits of "displaying the local articles
whenever available" for inter-lingual knowledge-generation.

Thanks for the very thoughtful questions and responses.

Cheers, Scott

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 5:25 PM Denny Vrandečić <vrande...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Ariel,
>
> thanks for the very thoughtful question. I got asked this question every
> time I present it, and during the Blue Sky presentation this question - or
> a variation of it - was asked three times. It really is on top of people's
> mind!
>
> My answer is half inconsistent, I am afraid, because I have by now come up
> with three ways to answer this question, and they contradict each other. So
> I am glad to hear more thoughts on it.
>
> Here are the three answers:
>
> 1) I think that language is a pretty bad delimiter to keep points of view
> apart. Yes, sure, it allows the Japanese Wikipedia to offer a different
> description of World War 2 than the Korean Wikipedia has, but I am not sure
> that is entirely a good thing. We don't have two Wikipedias for Portugal
> and Brazil, they have to agree and what they say, but we have Wikipedias in
> Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Serbocroatian... and I am not sure that the
> outcome of this decision is fully positive. So, my main point is, if we
> really want to capture cultural differences, let's align the borders of the
> editions of Wikipedia along these cultures. But aligning the cultural
> borders solely along language borders is badly imperfect.
>
> 2) But in general, I think that accepting that different Wikipedias should
> have different contents are incompatible with our NPOV policy. Now we could
> have a lengthy discussion whether NPOV is a good policy or not. But in
> general, I'd really prefer to have all points of views being presented with
> their due weight in all languages, instead of using languages to represent
> a point of view only in one language, and have a different point of view in
> another language. I would love to be able to read both the Japanese and the
> Korean point of view on contentious issues between these two countries - as
> I can in Serbian and Croatian, because I can read both languages just fine
> - but I think it is rather problematic that language barriers dictate the
> point of view I have access to. In fact, in many cases, we can see in the
> English speaking Wikipedia how the very same editors from the say Croatian
> and Serbian Wikipedia come to a more balanced result in the English
> Wikipedia, which they wouldn't accept in their 'home' Wikipedias. Funny,
> isn't it?
>
> 3) More importantly, and entirely disagreeing with #1 and #2, is that the
> Abstract Wikipedia never suggests to replace the current language editions,
> but to fill up the gaps in any given language edition. So, if the Croatian
> Wikipedia really wants to go into details on Croatian folk songs and
> Croatian food items, they should be totally able to do so without having to
> feel bad that they might be missing basic information about South American
> countries and Australian Aboriginal cultures. In fact, what I hope is that
> each language edition can choose to display the renderings from the
> Abstract Wikipedia for most articles, and then they can concentrate on
> creating in-depth articles on the topics they really care about - local
> cities, cultures, traditions. I remember in the beginning when working on
> the Croatian Wikipedia - it feels weird to work on the article about a
> local dish if you're still missing articles on all chemical elements. How
> can I write an article about the town my mom lives in (pop. 148) if there
> is no article yet about the country of Mexico? The abstract Wikipedia has
> the ability to lessen that pressure and allow the local communities to
> focus on their interests more.
>
> I assume that the solution that combines the three answers is that we will
> display the local articles whenever available, but be able to take a look
> at the article rendered from the abstract version (for contrast and
> comparison and maintenance). And if there is no local article, we would
> treat the article rendered from the abstract version like a proper article.
>
> So, as said, the actual answer to your question is still work in progress,
> but I wanted to write down a first sketch towards the answer. I am also
> very happy to hear other people thoughts on this question. But all in all I
> think that going toward an Abstract Wikipedia will improve along all the
> dimensions discussed. But I am sure I missed important dimensions on this
> question.
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 11:15 PM Ariel Glenn WMF <ar...@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I want to add a caution about the idea of translating one article for all
> > audiences. Even articles on some plants or animals will contain different
> > information depending on their role in the communities of the speakers
> of a
> > given language; how much more will articles about some politician or a
> > religious custom vary depending on the presumed cultural context of the
> > community of readers? Even sources vary according to the language of the
> > project, with sources in the project language preferred for ease of
> > verifiability. One of the strengths of multi-language Wikipedia is this
> > very concept of a topic being presented in a fashion that is suitable to
> > different communities of readers, and the language of the text is only
> one
> > part of that.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:40 AM Leila Zia <le...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Denny, thanks for writing and rewriting this piece. I finally got a
> > chance
> > > to go through it end-to-end. Challenge accepted! :)
> > >
> > > Here are a few early thoughts, and I look forward to discussing it with
> > you
> > > and others further.
> > >
> > > * I tend to agree with you that the challenges of artificial
> intelligence
> > > are a superset of the challenges of bringing to life the abstract
> > > Wikipedia. Quite a few items you list in "Unique advantages" section
> make
> > > the abstract-Wikipedia space more easily approachable.
> > >
> > > * I agree with you that if we are to take the content of Wikipedia to
> > many
> > > of the languages spoken in the world today, and engage their speakers
> to
> > > share in, the current model won't work/scale (at least soon enough).
> > >
> > > * You've raised a great point about "Graceful degradation". A very nice
> > > challenge.
> > >
> > > * In "Unique advantages" you talk about "a single genre of text,
> > > encyclopedias" and I wonder what it takes to expand our thinking to
> > include
> > > images as well. Will we need to rethink your current construct?
> Including
> > > images is attractive for at least two reasons: Because in terms of
> > learning
> > > people have different needs and we will likely need to (continue to)
> > > include images as we create the abstractions, but also because one can
> > > potentially think of images as representations that are already
> abstract.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Leila
> > >
> > > --
> > > Leila Zia
> > > Senior Research Scientist, Lead
> > > Wikimedia Foundation
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:13 AM Dariusz Jemielniak <dar...@alk.edu.pl
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > an interesting concept indeed!
> > > >
> > > > dj
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:36 PM Denny Vrandečić <vrande...@gmail.com
> > > > <mailto:vrande...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > The extended whitepaper that was presented at the DL workshop is now
> > > > available here:
> > > >
> > > > http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia_whitepaper.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Still not a proper scientific paper (no references, notv situated in
> > > > related work), but going into a bit more detail on the ideas on the
> > first
> > > > paper published previously.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 11:32 Denny Vrandečić <vrande...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:
> > > > vrande...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge
> > bases
> > > in
> > > > > a way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies
> > > formalize
> > > > > the shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and
> > > > > widespread languages that we know of are human natural languages,
> and
> > > the
> > > > > largest knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in
> human
> > > > > languages.
> > > > >
> > > > > We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge
> > representation
> > > > > languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English.
> We
> > > > > propose a project to simultaneously expose that gap, allow to
> > > collaborate
> > > > > on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly
> attractive
> > > and
> > > > > valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract
> > language
> > > to
> > > > > be rendered into any natural language on request. This would make
> > > current
> > > > > Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the
> > content
> > > of
> > > > > Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge
> > they
> > > > > currently do not have access to.
> > > > >
> > > > > My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018,
> 16:45-17:00,
> > > at
> > > > > the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue Sky track of ISWC. My
> > > > second,
> > > > > longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ,
> > > October
> > > > > 27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the
> > talk.
> > > > >
> > > > > Link to the paper: http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Denny
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:
> > > > wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org>?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ________________________________________________________
> > > > [http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/minds.jpg]<
> > http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> > > >       prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
> > > > kierownik katedry MINDS (Management in Networked and Digital
> Societies)
> > > > Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
> > > > http://NeRDS.kozminski.edu.pl <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ostatnie artykuły:
> > > >
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski (2017)  Cultural
> Diversity
> > of
> > > > Quality of Information on Wikipedias<
> > > > http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/cultures%20of%20wikipedias.pdf>
> > > > Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 68:
> > > 10.
> > > > 2460–2470.
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Wikimedia Movement Governance: The
> > > Limits
> > > > of A-Hierarchical Organization<
> > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/wikimedia_governance.pdf>
> > > Journal
> > > > of Organizational Change Management 29:  3.  361-378.
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak, Eduard Aibar (2016)  Bridging the Gap
> Between
> > > > Wikipedia and Academia<
> > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/bridging.pdf> Journal of the
> > > > Association for Information Science and Technology 67:  7.
> 1773-1776.
> > > >   *   Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)  Breaking the Glass Ceiling on
> > Wikipedia<
> > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/glass-ceiling.pdf> Feminist
> > > > Review 113:  1.  103-108.
> > > >   *   Tadeusz Chełkowski, Peter Gloor, Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)
> > > > Inequalities in Open Source Software Development: Analysis of
> > > Contributor’s
> > > > Commits in Apache Software Foundation Projects<
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0152976.PDF
> > > >,
> > > > PLoS ONE 11:  4.  e0152976.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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