That one I'll give you. I suppose we could all turn it down a couple notches.
Todd On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 11:56 AM Robert Fernandez <wikigamal...@gmail.com> wrote: > But star chamber rhetoric is not hyperbolic? > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:50 PM Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I think that's more than a bit hyperbolic. > > > > If it's a case of off-wiki harassment, of course that should get > reviewed privately. (Though by ArbCom, NOT WMF.) But it is not a violation > of anyone's privacy for the person who is accused to be told what they > supposedly did. If they did in fact do it--they already know exactly what > they did. If I send you some kind of harassing email, I already know I sent > it to you, so telling me "You sent Robert an email saying he's a _________ > and a _________ and a _____________ while we're at it" is not news to me. I > already know I did. > > > > On the other hand, if I didn't send that, knowing what was alleged > allows me to say "I absolutely did not do that." If I did send something, > but it were misinterpreted or misconstrued, I can offer an explanation of > what was actually meant. It is not always necessary for everyone to see > everything, but it is crucial for the accused party to. They have the right > to defend themself. > > > > However, if the alleged bad conduct all took place on-wiki, it is > already all public, so there is no privacy to protect (unless it involves > suppressed material). In that case, yes, any procedures should be public > and transparent, and that should be the default. > > > > Todd > > > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 10:35 AM Robert Fernandez < > wikigamal...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Of course it doesn't belong to the WMF. It belongs to everyone, and > >> that includes the victims of harassment who have no one to turn to > >> except the WMF. I am not aware of the circumstances of this office > >> action, but I am of a couple of the others, and there was nothing > >> involving the star chamber hyperbole you describe. Transparency is > >> key to the project in terms of policy making and article creation, but > >> the project cannot ethically demand transparency as you define it in > >> private matters involving things like (for example) off wiki > >> harassment and sexual abuse. This process involves multiple layers of > >> investigation and approval. The only thing it lacks is the ability > >> for you to pore over salacious details of someone's victimization. > >> > >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 12:07 PM Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > > >> > Robert, > >> > > >> > These two aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, Wikipedia belongs to > everyone. Specifically, a place in the community of Wikipedia editors is > open to anyone who would like to join. Those of us here have already done > that. But it is natural in any community or organization to give more > weight to respected, long-term members than those who just joined up > yesterday. They've learned the ropes and demonstrated a commitment to it. > >> > > >> > However, the project categorically does not belong to the WMF. The > WMF exists to serve and assist Wikimedia projects, not lord it over and > rule them. And since "Wikipedia belongs to everyone", we certainly > shouldn't be throwing people out in secret Star Chamber-style proceedings, > where apparently even the accused is not permitted to know all the evidence > against them. That is utterly antithetical to the open, community-run ethos > of the project. > >> > > >> > Todd > >> > > >> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 8:09 AM Robert Fernandez < > wikigamal...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, > and find that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. > >> >> > >> >> This is part of the problem right here. This isn't our project and > we > >> >> shouldn't be trying to exclude people from our community. Wikipedia > >> >> belongs to everyone. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:53 AM Peter Southwood > >> >> <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > Thrapostibongles, > >> >> > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, > and find that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. > >> >> > While it is possible that you have a long and distinguished edit > history under a previous name or as an IP editor, it leads me to wonder > just how familiar you are with the customs and culture of enwiki, which I > freely agree are non-optimal, but have evolved to sort of work in an > environment which was predicted to be impossible. Yet here we are, > dysfunctionally surviving when we are theoretically long extinct. Our > dysfunctional mores function as they do and evolve through surviving and > occasional modification by consensus of those who care enough to take part > in the process, within the environment in which we work. We are somewhere > between an anarchy and a community, and we do not generally appreciate > pontification from outsiders, which is what you appear to be, and to a > large extent, what we consider WMF to be. It is a problem. If WMF chooses > to rule by fiat it will have interesting consequences. So far they have > mostly avoided that, and when they have it has not ended well. If you > consider yourself an expert in something relevant I invite you to show > evidence of your credentials. Otherwise we will take your comments as we do > those of any other unproven internet commentator. > >> >> > This is just my personal take, I do not presume to represent > anyone else. You are as free to ignore me as I am to ignore you, but > engaging in this discussion has its consequences, and one of them is to be > questioned. > >> >> > Cheers, > >> >> > Peter Southwood > >> >> > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] > On Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles > >> >> > Sent: 12 June 2019 09:06 > >> >> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > >> >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > >> >> > > >> >> > Yaroslav, > >> >> > > >> >> > I think it's reasonably clear that the English Wikipedia community > and its > >> >> > community structures, such as its Arbitration Committee, and > processes are > >> >> > not capable of maintaining a productive, harassment-free > environment for > >> >> > the volunteer workers. For example, they have consistently > failed, after > >> >> > several attempts, to handle the case of a volunteer who used the > word > >> >> > "Cxxx" about a fellow worker, and the community has agreed that > telling > >> >> > others to "Fxxx off" is acceptable. These are symptoms of a > dysfunctional > >> >> > community, which tolerates behaviour that is unacceptable in any > collegial > >> >> > working environment, and it is right that the Foundation should > step in. > >> >> > > >> >> > Thrapostibongles > >> >> > > >> >> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 4:56 PM Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > The point made by pretty much everyone is not that Fram should > or should > >> >> > > not be banned, but that the process in this case should have > followed the > >> >> > > standard dispute resolution avenues, More specifically, the case > should > >> >> > > have been communicated to the Arbitration Committee, whose > members did sign > >> >> > > the non-disclosure agreement. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > This is different from the past cases when users were banned by > WMF, since > >> >> > > in this case it was made clear the case is based on on-wiki open > activity > >> >> > > of Fram (and, specifically, only on the English Wikipedia). The > on-wiki > >> >> > > activity is subject to the community policies. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > To be clear, I am not a friend of Fram, and in the past > supported desysop > >> >> > > on a number of occasions. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Cheers > >> >> > > Yaroslav > >> >> > > > >> >> > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 5:46 PM Amir Sarabadani < > ladsgr...@gmail.com> > >> >> > > wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > People who oppose the ban: Are you aware of all aspects and > things Fram > >> >> > > has > >> >> > > > done? Do you have the full picture? It's really saddening to > see how fast > >> >> > > > people jump to conclusion in page mentioned in the email. I > personally, > >> >> > > > don't know what happened so I neither can support or oppose > the ban. As > >> >> > > > simple as that. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > So what should be done IMO. If enwiki wants to know more, a > community > >> >> > > body > >> >> > > > can ask for more information, if body satisfy two things: > >> >> > > > - They had signed NDA not to disclose the case > >> >> > > > - They are trusted by the community > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > I think the only body can sorta work with this is stewards but > not sure > >> >> > > > (Does ArbCom NDA'ed?) > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < > >> >> > > > paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Lack of transparency from the WMF, whatelse is new. > >> >> > > > > I'm currently under a funding ban secretly decided (by who?) > based on a > >> >> > > > > false accusation, without providing any evidence. Until now > I'm waiting > >> >> > > > for > >> >> > > > > an explanation from the WMF. So, this sort of attitude > doesn't surprise > >> >> > > > me > >> >> > > > > at all. > >> >> > > > > It is very unfortunate that the WMF apparently thrives in > this kind of > >> >> > > > > medieval obscurity, the opposite of the values of the > Wikimedia > >> >> > > Movement. > >> >> > > > > Matter for Roles & Reponsibilities. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > Best, > >> >> > > > > Paulo > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminik...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia > terça, > >> >> > > > 11/06/2019 > >> >> > > > > à(s) 05:45: > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > Thanks for this. > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dismayed by the > unilateralism > >> >> > > and > >> >> > > > > > lack of transparency. > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > On Jun 10, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Techman224 < > techman...@techman224.ca> > >> >> > > > > wrote: > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > Forwarding to WIkimedia-l since WikiEN-l is relatively > dead. > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > Since this message, an Arbcom member (SilkTork) stated > that they > >> >> > > > > weren't > >> >> > > > > > consulted, nor did this action was the result of Arbcom > forwarding a > >> >> > > > > > concern to the office. [1] > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > The only non-response excuse from the WMF [2] was that > "local > >> >> > > > > > communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their > own > >> >> > > > autonomous > >> >> > > > > > rules but the Terms of Use, too.” even though there were no > >> >> > > complaints > >> >> > > > > > on-wiki nor to Arbcom privately. > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > The on-wiki discussion is taking place at the > Bureaucrats and the > >> >> > > > > Arbcom > >> >> > > > > > noticeboards. > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > >> >> > > > > > < > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Request_for_ArbCom_to_comment_publicly_on_Fram's_ban > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > [1] > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 > >> >> > > > > > < > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > [2] > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Statement_from_the_WMF_Trust_&_Safety_Team > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > Techman224 > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> Begin forwarded message: > >> >> > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > >> From: George Herbert <george.herb...@gmail.com> > >> >> > > > > > >> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > >> >> > > > > > >> Date: June 10, 2019 at 8:54:34 PM CDT > >> >> > > > > > >> To: English Wikipedia <wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> > >> >> > > > > > >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia < > wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> > >> >> > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > >> In case you're not following on-wiki - Office S&T > blocked English > >> >> > > > > > Wikipedia > >> >> > > > > > >> user / administrator Fram for a year and desysopped, for > >> >> > > unspecified > >> >> > > > > > >> reasons in the Office purview. There was a brief > statement here > >> >> > > > from > >> >> > > > > > >> Office regarding it which gave no details other than > that normal > >> >> > > > > policy > >> >> > > > > > and > >> >> > > > > > >> procedures for Office actions were followed, which > under normal > >> >> > > > > > >> circumstances preclude public comments. > >> >> > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > >> >> > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > >> Several people on Arbcom and board have commented > they're making > >> >> > > > > private > >> >> > > > > > >> inquiries under normal reporting and communication > channels, due > >> >> > > to > >> >> > > > > the > >> >> > > > > > >> oddity and essentially uniqueness of the action. > >> >> > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > >> There was an initial surge of dismay which has mellowed > IMHO into > >> >> > > > "Ok, > >> >> > > > > > >> responsible people following up". > >> >> > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > >> I understand the sensitivity of some of the topics > under Office > >> >> > > > > actions, > >> >> > > > > > >> having done OTRS and other various had-to-stay-private > stuff > >> >> > > myself > >> >> > > > at > >> >> > > > > > >> times in the past. A high profile investigation target > is most > >> >> > > > > unusual > >> >> > > > > > but > >> >> > > > > > >> not unheard of. > >> >> > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > >> I did send email to Fram earlier today asking if they > had any > >> >> > > public > >> >> > > > > > >> comment, no reply as yet. > >> >> > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > >> > >> >> > > > > > >> -- > >> >> > > > > > >> -george william herbert > >> >> > > > > > >> george.herb...@gmail.com > >> >> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> > > > > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list > >> >> > > > > > >> wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org > >> >> > > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > >> >> > > > > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > >> >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> >> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > and > >> >> 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