I think at this point, someone needs to answer: who has predetermined this outcome?
It's clear nobody at (say) Samir's level can or will answer this question - just repeat the same things again, as if nobody ever objected. So precisely who is so gung-ho for this idea? - d. On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 13:58, Tito Dutta <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello, > My comments are in a personal capacity, and kindly note my posts are not > directed towards anyone specifically/at all. Sincere thanks for > understanding these two points. > > " We recommend you to have a look at these updates before making further > conclusions here. > -- Thanks for the recommendation. Kindly do not assume that we are not > reading the updates "before making further conclusions here". > > " the Brand team has been watching the RfC and has written a summary about > it" > --Yes, RfC needs a closure/summary, from which we get action points. Now, > there is something called WP:INVOLVED. Someone who is > supporting/opposing/promoting/demoting an idea or in other words someone > who is "involved" often may not close or summarise a debate/discussion with > due weight to all the arguments. As a result, conclusions may be faulty, > and action points may not reflect the actual opinion of the RfC. Example > below. > > FAQ: Why is this project moving forward after the RfC resulted in clear > majority opposition? > ( > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/FAQ#Why_is_this_project_moving_forward_after_the_RfC_resulted_in_clear_majority_opposition > ?) > -- Even after reading the answer I also don't understand "why?" A point I > get there is "exploring further options". On the report page, "What is > happening with the feedback?" (intended action points section perhaps) is > taking me to FAQ page. From the FAQ page the last paragraph sends me back > to the report page, making it a loop. > > " The team has integrated the feedback of the RfC in the development > process, just as we did with the activities organized by the project > itself. " > -- unlike other statements here any footnote or reference is not given. > Would love to learn what are those activities and how was the RfC feedback > integrated into the agenda/activity. (Please note that I have read the > brand workshop report.) > > That's all for now, with regards, and good wishes during the global > pandemic time, > User:Titodutta > > > On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 14:19, Samir Elsharbaty <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi, the Brand team has been watching the RfC and has written a summary > > about it [1] that was shared both in the RfC [2] and the project page [3] > > in Meta. The team has integrated the feedback of the RfC in the development > > process, just as we did with the activities organized by the project > > itself. > > > > The RfC is covered in the main project page as well as in the FAQ [4]. The > > RfC has been a recurrent topic of discussion in the Brand project talk page > > [5], where we are answering questions and discussing topics whenever they > > are posted. We recommend you to have a look at these updates before making > > further conclusions here. > > > > The RfC is about the use of the word “Wikipedia” in the name of the > > Foundation, and by extension the names of affiliates were discussed as > > well. The project team has clarified that many options for a naming > > convention are being explored. While having Wikipedia as a central concept > > is a project requirement, It is very unlikely that any naming convention > > proposal will be based on a simple substitution of the word "Wikimedia" > > with the word "Wikipedia". Brand systems offer many more possibilities. > > > > Another important point to clarify is that the proposals for naming > > conventions haven’t been defined yet. According to the project timeline > > [6], several proposals for a naming convention will be shared with the > > communities for feedback in May, at the earliest. At the end of this > > review, one proposal will be selected and refined. You can check the > > timeline to learn about further phases with public reviews before the full > > proposal for a brand system is presented to the Wikimedia Foundation > > leadership and the Board. > > > > [1] > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/RfC_Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia > > > > [2] > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Requests_for_comment/Should_the_Foundation_call_itself_Wikipedia#Report_about_this_RfC_by_the_Brand_Project_team > > > > [3] > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project > > > > [4] > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/FAQ > > > > [5] > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project > > > > > > > > > > Samir Elsharbaty (he/him) > > > > Community Brand and Marketing coordinator > > > > Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 1:12 AM David Gerard <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Yes. Who's the person telling Samir to post this stuff, which comes > > > across as aggressively ignoring all feedback to date? Could we have a > > > word with them here? > > > > > > > > > - d. > > > > > > On Fri, 10 Apr 2020 at 14:12, Peter Southwood > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > When you speak for someone who is hard of listening, it is an > > > occupational hazard that you will be shouted at occasionally by those > > whose > > > voices are being ignored. It is not necessarily anything personal, just > > > part of the heat in the kitchen. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On > > > Behalf Of Yaroslav Blanter > > > > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 11:28 AM > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a movement? > > > > > > > > In all honesty, this should not have been directed at Samir. I do not > > > think > > > > he has the authority to stop the process. And whoever has probably > > spends > > > > more time in Twitter that in Wikimedia projects. > > > > > > > > Best > > > > Yaroslav > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 11:12 AM Tito Dutta <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > There is something called [[WP:IDHT,]] i.e. I didn't hear that. > > > > > No matter how many times, how many people (90% in the RFC) speak, I > > > just > > > > > didn't hear that. > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > (Comment in personal capacity) > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 10 Apr 2020 at 00:15, Samir Elsharbaty < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > We wanted to follow up with a brief update on the project timeline > > > and > > > > > > share an invitation to join an event this month. > > > > > > > > > > > > We know there continues to be so much uncertainty in the world, so > > > we are > > > > > > slowing down the process of the project. Big changes are happening > > > to all > > > > > > of us these days. We want to make sure that we respect the time and > > > > > > priorities of the project collaborators. This means updating the > > > project > > > > > > timeline approach to have more flexibility for participants and > > > smaller > > > > > > time commitments [1], revising the project schedule month by month > > > and > > > > > > keeping the Brand Network [2] and other participants informed on a > > > more > > > > > > regular basis with any updates and changes. The naming discussions > > > > > planned > > > > > > for April are now pushed to May, at the earliest. Design proposals > > > are > > > > > > likewise shifted +4 weeks. > > > > > > > > > > > > But we do have things to share: > > > > > > > > > > > > *This month: live brand concept presentation!* > > > > > > > > > > > > To honor, celebrate, and conclude the work around the concepts > > > referred > > > > > to > > > > > > in Essie’s email above [3], Snohetta and the Brand Project team > > will > > > > > > present the Unified Concept LIVE on 16 April, 15:00 - 16:00 GMT. > > > Snøhetta > > > > > > will explain how they used the ideas, feedback and conceptual > > models > > > from > > > > > > the workshops and online exercises to arrive at a final, unified > > > concept. > > > > > > This unified concept will be the foundation for the upcoming work > > > around > > > > > > the naming conventions, visual decisions, and the overall design > > > system. > > > > > > The session will also be recorded and made available for viewing > > > after. > > > > > You > > > > > > can join us using these links. [4] Note: this is not a presentation > > > of a > > > > > > proposal for a naming convention or design. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > > > > > Samir and the brand project team > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communications/Wikimedia_brands/2030_movement_brand_project/Timeline > > > > > > > > > > > > [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Brand_Network > > > > > > > > > > > > [3] https://brandingwikipedia.org/concepts/ > > > > > > > > > > > > [4] Join via Zoom: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wikimedia.zoom.us/j/769565325 > > > > > > > > > > > > Steam via Youtube Live: > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS72O6Si94Q > > > > > > > > > > > > Samir Elsharbaty (he/him) > > > > > > > > > > > > Community Brand and Marketing coordinator > > > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 10:32 AM David Gerard <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The article itself is spammy brochure-style nonsense, and this is > > > even > > > > > > > after some cleanup. Editorial eyes welcomed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sn%C3%B8hetta_(company) > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sn%C3%B8hetta_%28company%29> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - d. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 23:16, Samir Elsharbaty > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Brand Project Team felt it was important to address the > > > concerns > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > questions around Snøhetta and the English Wikipedia, and have > > now > > > > > added > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > FAQ about it. [1] Please refer there for the full details about > > > the > > > > > > block > > > > > > > > and what is being done. The project team is in the process of > > > > > updating > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > project materials, including the FAQ, so feel free to add those > > > pages > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > your watchlist to stay up to date on the latest information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Samir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] https://w.wiki/LEF > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Samir Elsharbaty (he/him) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Community Brand and Marketing coordinator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 4:43 AM Gnangarra <[email protected] > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does have feeling of a company creating a financial > > > > > relationship > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > the Foundation as way to bypass or backdoor a community ban > > > thats > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > reviewed already. Over the years I've worked with many > > users > > > who > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > blocked and help them become productive contributors but > > before > > > > > they > > > > > > > start > > > > > > > > > making recommendation or decisions about who we are there > > > needs to > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > something done to get them back to good standing with the > > > community > > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > > untiil thats taken place. It's like asking the fox to > > > rebuild > > > > > the > > > > > > > hen > > > > > > > > > house, I just dont see how I could support anything they > > > > > recommend. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After the dollars, and t=volunteer time that has been pumped > > > into > > > > > the > > > > > > > 2030 > > > > > > > > > strategy shouldnt we already know who we are, as it is that > > > should > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > been the key starting point for a strategy process. Its > > > > > > comprehensible > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > to have known or explored that before deciding where, how, > > why > > > we > > > > > > will > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > doing anything for the next 10 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:20, David Gerard < > > [email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Particularly as they've demonstrated by their actions an > > > > > > > unwillingness > > > > > > > > > > to work with Wikipedia properly: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive318#Review_of_User:Sn%C3%B8hettaAS_block_please > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - d. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 14 Mar 2020 at 04:34, Peter Southwood > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would agree with this in principle. From what I have > > > seen so > > > > > > > far, it > > > > > > > > > > looks like either Snøhetta have not done their homework on > > > how we > > > > > > > > > operate, > > > > > > > > > > or they have the arrogance of PR agencies, don't care, and > > > plan > > > > > to > > > > > > > spin > > > > > > > > > > their way through with smoke and mirrors, flashy pages with > > > lots > > > > > of > > > > > > > buzz, > > > > > > > > > > little content and all the dialogue they can't avoid. Maybe > > > I am > > > > > > > wrong, > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > they have just been badly briefed. Who can tell from the > > > outside? > > > > > > > Block > > > > > > > > > > evasion does not bode well for their understanding of the > > > > > > community. > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto: > > > > > > [email protected]] > > > > > > > On > > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of Pine W > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 8:13 PM > > > > > > > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Brand Project: Who are we as a > > > > > > movement? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First, a disclaimer that these comments aren't directed > > > > > > personally > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > you, Essie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if money was unlimited, I thought that Snøhetta > > > deserved > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > community's trust, and I felt that WMF was a good steward > > > of > > > > > > > resources > > > > > > > > > > > (all of which are questionable), I don't think that this > > > > > project > > > > > > > is a > > > > > > > > > > > good idea. Wikidata is an increasingly important > > component > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > Wikiverse, and there are a some problems with WMF > > > rebranding > > > > > > > itself as > > > > > > > > > > > the Wikipedia Foundation including the risk to the > > > communities > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > affiliates from WMF's political adventures, governance > > > > > problems, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > occasional high profile clashes with the community. I > > don't > > > > > think > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > the costs or the risks here make sense, I wouldn't > > involve > > > > > > Snøhetta > > > > > > > > > > > given its apparent block evasion on English Wikipedia, > > and > > > I've > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > > unimpressed with WMF's handling of this process during > > the > > > past > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > > > months. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am fine with discussions about branding, but not with > > > this > > > > > > > program > > > > > > > > > > > in its current form. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given the choice, I would freeze this project and > > spending > > > > > > > associated > > > > > > > > > > > with it pending a Meta RfC regarding the community's view > > > on > > > > > > > whether > > > > > > > > > > > this project should continue. If the community wants a > > > branding > > > > > > > > > > > project to continue, I would let the community decide on > > > the > > > > > > > project's > > > > > > > > > > > parameters and budget, and what if any consultant should > > be > > > > > > > involved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pine > > > > > > > > > > > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > and > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 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