Yaroslav did, and again the Framwiki case was mentioned. And while I do
realise this bruised and scarred the relationship between the English
community and the WMF, please realise the UCoC could benefit a lot of other
communities. Those who are not vocal on this list, and are just the silent
readers. Those who maybe do not even know this list exists, or do not read
because of English not being their first language. Those who have been
struggling to keep their wiki on track maybe, and do not have the time or
knowledge to design and agree on behavioural ground rules. Or in countries
where the volunteer work we do even might be dangerous, so they just try to
stick to writing. The UCoC could benefit the whole movement, so please keep
a global perspective on this.

And yes: I do agree we as volunteers deserve to give our input, and we
deserve to be heard. But I do think we will get our chance. For now, it
will be up to the writers to start a draft. Give them time to set this up
properly.

Ciell


Op vr 31 jul. 2020 19:36 schreef Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com>:

> Hello Ciell,
>
> These discussions took place on meta, not on en.wp. I don't believe anyone
> has brought up the English Wikipedia in particular.
>
> Todd
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:08 AM Ciell Wikipedia <
> ciell.wikipe...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Since this is about a Universal Code of Conduct, please do not focus this
> > thread on the English language Wikipedia alone.
> >
> > Ciell
> >
> > Op vr 31 jul. 2020 18:25 schreef Aron Manning <aronmanni...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > As firmly endorsed by 41 community members (out of thousands) in the
> ToU
> > > for WMF
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations/Iteration_1/Diversity/9#Terms_of_Use_for_the_WMF
> > > >
> > > discussion,
> > > I think we can agree that the Terms of Use (and also the Code of
> Conduct)
> > > should apply to WMF employees as well, not just volunteers.
> > >
> > > However, I don't see how from that it could be inferred that there
> should
> > > be no Code of Conduct for the communities.
> > > I believe that the important question is how the CoC will be
> implemented:
> > > will it be a tool for silencing unwanted POVs or a tool for addressing
> > > toxicity?
> > >
> > >
> > > Just my thoughts.
> > > Aron
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 18:11, Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is known and widely recognized that online communities were
> excluded
> > > > from the strategy process. There was no way one could open RfC on the
> > > > process, and no approval of the strategy by the editing communities.
> > > >
> > > > This has to be fixed now. It is difficult to fix, because there are
> > > already
> > > > too many boundary conditions attached, and I am personally trying to
> do
> > > > whatever I can as a member of the transition strategy group.
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, there was no real RfC rejecting the UCoC (at
> least I
> > > am
> > > > not aware of one), even though many users, in particular, on the
> > English
> > > > Wikipedia in relation to the Fram affair, were very vocal about this.
> > But
> > > > people become vocal about many things, some of them, for example,
> > > continue
> > > > to advocate that we should fork from the existing project and this
> > > forking
> > > > is the only way forward. People say many things, and we have
> community
> > > > processes to see what is consensus and what is not.
> > > >
> > > > In the current situation, specifically concerning UCoC, is to wait
> for
> > > the
> > > > draft / drafting principle, whatever comes on 24 august. If many
> people
> > > > think the product is not acceptable they should open RfC on meta or
> on
> > > the
> > > > projects and see whether there is consensus it is unacceptable. For
> > these
> > > > RfCs to happen, but for this people should really follow the process,
> > > read
> > > > the draft and see what the consequences are. If online communities
> are
> > > not
> > > > involved in this process either, then things will go over and over
> > again
> > > -
> > > > UCOc accepted as proposed, included into ToU, followed by a couple of
> > > > high-profile bans, shistorm in the most active communities, and
> > complete
> > > > denial by WMF managers. We have been there and we do not want this
> > > > happening again.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > > Yaroslav
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 5:55 PM Anders Wennersten <
> > > > m...@anderswennersten.se>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > If you choose to not take active part in he strategy process it it
> > your
> > > > > privilege.  But the fact is that the Strategy is the steering
> > document
> > > > > now for the nearest activities in the Movement. And the endorsments
> > are
> > > > > there to be read.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you had wanted the endorsement to be visible in the form of a
> Rfc,
> > > > > you missed to express that in an appropriate  moment.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anders
> > > > >
> > > > > (This being my third entry, it will be my last)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Den 2020-07-31 kl. 17:38, skrev Todd Allen:
> > > > > > I have read that, but do not see any public RfC nor any
> individual
> > > > > > statements.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Todd
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 9:34 AM Anders Wennersten <
> > > > > m...@anderswennersten.se>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Read
> > > > >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20
> > > > > >> and people involved supporting it and endorsing its different
> > phases
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Anders
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Den 2020-07-31 kl. 17:28, skrev Todd Allen:
> > > > > >>> Where was the public RfC that these "700 individuals"
> > participated
> > > > in?
> > > > > >> The
> > > > > >>> one I saw, which took place on Meta, was, again, a very firm
> > "No".
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Off-wiki backchanneling stuff doesn't count.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Todd
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 9:18 AM Anders Wennersten <
> > > > > >> m...@anderswennersten.se>
> > > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> The development of the Code of Conduct is part of the
> Strategy.
> > > The
> > > > > >>>> strategy and this part was endorsed by some 700 individuals
> > > > > representing
> > > > > >>>> more or less all parts of the Movement. And that group is the
> > > > closest
> > > > > we
> > > > > >>>> have seen resembling a government body of the movement. But as
> > in
> > > a
> > > > > >>>> democracy, even if the parliament is unanimous in a decision,
> it
> > > > does
> > > > > >>>> not mean all citizens, or even groups of citizens, agree. But
> is
> > > the
> > > > > >>>> best way we know how to come to a decision.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> And how to implent it is still open, and will most likely
> > involve
> > > > all
> > > > > >>>> parties being effected by it
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Anders
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Den 2020-07-31 kl. 16:28, skrev Todd Allen:
> > > > > >>>>> Uh, guys?
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> That was a firm "No" on any Universal Code of Conduct. There
> > > > > shouldn't
> > > > > >>>> be a
> > > > > >>>>> "drafting committee" for it, it was disapproved.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Todd
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 11:49 AM Christel Steigenberger <
> > > > > >>>>> csteigenber...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Hello everyone,
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> We are happy to announce that the Universal Code of Conduct
> > > > drafting
> > > > > >>>>>> committee has been assembled. We had 26 volunteers apply,
> > either
> > > > by
> > > > > >>>>>> publicly signing up on the Meta page, or by sending an
> email.
> > > > > >> Volunteers
> > > > > >>>>>> from 18 different countries applied, speaking 11 different
> > > > > languages.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> We had Wikimedian applicants with different levels of
> > experience
> > > > > >>>> on-wiki,
> > > > > >>>>>> from someone who started editing only last year to people
> who
> > > have
> > > > > >> been
> > > > > >>>>>> editing for more than 18 years and/or have more than 300,000
> > > > edits.
> > > > > >>>>>> Applicants held a variety of different roles within the
> > > movement,
> > > > > and
> > > > > >>>> also
> > > > > >>>>>> informed us about interesting and relevant experiences in
> > their
> > > > > >>>> real-life
> > > > > >>>>>> careers. It was very hard to narrow down from this diverse
> and
> > > > > >> extremely
> > > > > >>>>>> qualified pool of applicants.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> For the final selection, two aspects guided the decision
> > making
> > > -
> > > > we
> > > > > >>>> want a
> > > > > >>>>>> committee that at the one hand will represent important
> parts
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > >>>>>> movement. Prolific editors as well as Wikimedians whose
> > strength
> > > > is
> > > > > >>>> more in
> > > > > >>>>>> organizing events, wikimedians from different demographics,
> > > > > >> contributors
> > > > > >>>>>> from small and large wikis, and people holding different
> roles
> > > > > within
> > > > > >>>> the
> > > > > >>>>>> movement. We also wanted a group of people who will
> > collaborate
> > > > with
> > > > > >> one
> > > > > >>>>>> another effectively and create the best possible Universal
> > Code
> > > of
> > > > > >>>> Conduct
> > > > > >>>>>> for the Wikimedia movement. Experience has taught us that
> > > > committees
> > > > > >>>> that
> > > > > >>>>>> are too large find it difficult to work effectively, so we
> > > decided
> > > > > to
> > > > > >>>> cap
> > > > > >>>>>> the number of seats to 6 volunteer seats and 3 staff seats.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> More information on the Committee and its new members can be
> > > found
> > > > > on
> > > > > >>>> Meta
> > > > > >>>>>> <
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
> > > > > >>>>>> [1], and a timeline for their work is available on the main
> > UCoC
> > > > > page
> > > > > >>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct>
> > > [2].
> > > > > >> Please
> > > > > >>>>>> note that more chances for engagement are coming up during
> the
> > > > > >> community
> > > > > >>>>>> draft review period starting from August 24.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Best regards,
> > > > > >>>>>> Christel
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>      [1]
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
> > > > > >>>>>> [2]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Christel Steigenberger (she/her)
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Trust and Safety Specialist
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/>
> > > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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