[Winona Online Democracy] Consolidation in education covers up any financially measurable failures. I believe some have failed their mission worse than Enron and World Com. Mission results are also more difficult to measure in education,
There are allot of successes in business and education. The financial failure of business are more visible. Tom Severson Severson Oil Co. P.O. Box 736 Winona, Mn. 55987 507 452 3402 ext 214 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bothuns Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 6:36 AM To: David; Winona Online Democracy Subject: Re: [Winona] School Administrators/NPR bias [Winona Online Democracy] "I can find many examples of educational systems blowing up worse than Enron and WorldCom. I do not think any business as failed as badly as some educational systems have." Other than districts that have consolidated or combined, name a single district that has failed to the point that it no longer exists, no longer serves any students on any level. I do not believe that even one such school district exists. No student in this country is prevented from getting san education by the absence of a local district to provide it. Also, believe there are significantly more than 7000 school districts. BRyon ----- Original Message ----- From: "David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Winona Online Democracy" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [Winona] School Administrators/NPR bias > [Winona Online Democracy] > > > On Jan 2, 2006, at 12:45, Bothuns wrote: > >> "> I would add to Paul's comments the following: When shareholders begin >>> to hold boards responsible for bad decisions by declining to rubber >>> stamp all proposals and elections, boards may then become cognizant of >>> whom they represent." >> >> This actually leads me to the underlying motivation of my post. For too >> long we have been told that our education system is failing and that it >> must be recast in the mold of our business model. I believe this is >> exactly the opposite of what needs to happen. A strong and vibrant >> middle class has been the backbone of the US economy and the bedrock of >> that middle class has been public education. The ethics of business just >> don't work that well in the classroom (and I would argue that our current >> business ethic doesn't even work that well for business). I don't think >> ANY public school has ever failed as miserably as Enron did and we simply >> cannot afford to allow our schools to fail. If anything our businesses >> model needs change to try and replicate the almost unprecedented success >> of our public education system from the end of WW II until the very >> recent past. It is a system that was once the envy of the developed >> world. I don't think it is simply coincidence that our attempts to apply >> business practices in education have fairly nearly coincided with the >> deterioration of our public schools. The dynamics of a free market just >> aren't appropriate for a system that is as diverse, challenging , long >> term, and essential as our system of education. > > What is wrong with creating a business model in an educational setting? > > "A description of the operations of a business including the components of > the business, the functions of the business, and the revenues and expenses > that the business generates." > "Business Model", http://www.investorwords.com/629/business_model.html > > In an educational environment there are components such as counseling, > special education, band, history, chemistry, and et cetera. They have a > common goal to work together for the welfare of the student; this is the > function. There are also expenses such as supplies and sources of income > such as the school lunch program. Perhaps there is attached meaning to > your comments that I cannot speak without more knowledge of your > definition. > > -- > > What do you mean that the opposite of a business model needs to occur? > Perhaps the intention is to say that business leaders are not the best > sources for information about the direction of the educational system. I > can agree with that to a limited extent. During the Clinton Administration > pages of notebooks were filled with commentary decrying that however, > business leaders also should not be excluded. > > -- > > There are more than seven thousand public companies and few declare > bankruptcy yearly. Some of these are the product of bad decisions; others > are the product of market pressures. Yet, because of a few high profile > bankruptcies we equate that to the educational system blowing up with a > business plan? The criminal actions of a few are equated to the entire > sector or an idea being insidious yet when compared with the majority > rather than the minority, the concept of a bad ethic is hard to see. The > squeaky wheel gets the grease and attention, however, most wheels are > greased well before the squeak and attention. > > -- > > I can find many examples of educational systems blowing up worse than > Enron and WorldCom. I do not think any business as failed as badly as some > educational systems have. These systems have failed so badly the results > are mapped by the US Census. To equate business ethics as bad and the > source of problems ignores the problems that other education systems have. > Most previously segregated educational systems arguably blew up and the > repercussions continue to effect the populations of these areas, although > theoretically with a diminishing effect yearly. > > The following link is a picture of the Pont du Gard aqueduct, a Roman > masterpiece. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pont_du_gard.jpg > > The impairment of segregated school systems and unjust laws worked to harm > individuals similar to playing a game of Jenga with the Pont du Gard > Aqueduct. Perhaps you can abbreviate in a few cases; this will however > increase the pressure on another area to perform. To apply a Vygotskyian > spin to this metaphor and extend it, the top "shelf" of the aqueduct > represents the pupil, the little arches represent the friends and peers of > the pupil, the middle arches represent the educators, and the bottom > arches represent the family. Since the Jenga game was multi-generational, > each layer is affected, one now removes blocks from each successive arch > and quickly finds that the structure can no longer do its required task. > With the missing blocks, the scaffold can no longer accomplish the goal of > providing sufficient support for the next challenge. > > >> I'm just not willing to trust the future of my children to some "unseen >> hand". >> >> >> IMHO >> >> Bryon Bothun > > The unseen hand is the involvement that parents and the child place into > the system. People get as much out of a classroom as they are willing to > interact with it. > > > ******************************************** > David Dittmann > > >> From: "David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "Online Democracy" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 12:18 PM >> Subject: Re: [Winona] School Administrators/NPR bias >> >> >>> On Jan 2, 2006, at 10:49, Paul Double wrote: >>> >>> [snip] >>> >>>> Bryon, I think most if not all of us would agree that there are a few >>>> CEO's >>>> whose cost clearly does not represent a good value for the corporations >>>> they >>>> represent. Until Boards of Directors become responsible to their >>>> stockholders and not to the CEO little if anything will change and more >>>> and >>>> more disclosure information will help stockholders stop some of the >>>> games. >>>> No individual, in my opinion, is worth or worthy of any compensation >>>> for >>>> their work, not ownership, beyond 40 percent of the people they >>>> directly >>>> supervise. In the case of very large corporations which will involve >>>> many >>>> layers of employees that will by the organizational tree generate more >>>> for >>>> those at the top. But the abuses of boards for many very large >>>> corporations >>>> to enable this to continue, not in the interest of good management but >>>> rather, the politics of retaining a good old boy network. >>>> >>>> For most, CEO's and owners, the poor examples of the big boy's greed is >>>> not >>>> a model that we respect or want to copy. We have enough outside and >>>> foreign >>>> competition to fight without having to deal with internal rapist of our >>>> corporate assets. >>> >>> [snip] >>> >>> I would add to Paul's comments the following: When shareholders begin to >>> hold boards responsible for bad decisions by declining to rubber stamp >>> all proposals and elections, boards may then become cognizant of whom >>> they represent. >>> >>> Currently there are few examples of boards being challenged, credibly. >>> The current high-profile example of a board being challenged involves >>> Carl Icahn and his idiotic attempt to protect AOL-Time Warner's >>> shareholder value. Where was Carl Icahn when AOL's Steve Case was >>> ripping off Time Warner shareholders? The point remains that shareholder >>> activism needs and boards of directors need improvement. >>> >>> ******************************************** >>> David Dittmann > > _______________________________________________ > This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy > All messages must be signed by the senders actual name. > No commercial solicitations are allowed on this list. > To manage your subscription or view the message archives, please visit > http://mapnp.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/winona > Any problems or suggestions can be directed to > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you want help on how to contact elected > officials, go to the Contact page at > http://www.winonaonlinedemocracy.org _______________________________________________ This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy All messages must be signed by the senders actual name. No commercial solicitations are allowed on this list. To manage your subscription or view the message archives, please visit http://mapnp.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/winona Any problems or suggestions can be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you want help on how to contact elected officials, go to the Contact page at http://www.winonaonlinedemocracy.org _______________________________________________ This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy All messages must be signed by the senders actual name. No commercial solicitations are allowed on this list. To manage your subscription or view the message archives, please visit http://mapnp.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/winona Any problems or suggestions can be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you want help on how to contact elected officials, go to the Contact page at http://www.winonaonlinedemocracy.org
