Josh, I want to thank you for your posts on this thread. They have been very helpful and enlightening. Do you build the queues at the tower router or at the edge router. I have the Idea that it would be great to build the inbound/download queues at the edge and outbound/upload queue at the tower to help flow across my internal net. Not sure how to make that happen yet or easily manage it but that would be ideal. Any thoughts or comments?
Steve Barnes RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Forgot to mention this - this is crucial. In Wireless ISP LLC's case, they sell 2 megs, 5 megs and 10 megs. There is no point allowing a customer to burst to >2 megs when they pay for 2 megs. This gives them no reason to upgrade to the 5 or 10 package when they're package is satisfactory. My suggestion is to make six simple queues (MikroTik speak, but any packet shaper should be able to accomplish this). Three residential packages for the three sizes of bandwidths and then three more for businesses. Obviously the businesses queues get priority of residential ones so during high usage times (irrelevant of the time of day) the businesses get more reliable service. If a customer complains about the speed, then simply state (the obvious fact that) their bandwidth package obviously doesn't fit their needs and they need to upgrade. If you can do this upgrade while they're on the phone you know you're doing things right! If you want to bend over backwards for the customer you can QoS their traffic (HTTP, DNS first; SMTP, POP, IMAP second, Games third, and matched P2P last). I advise this as a small monthly fee (even if it's $4.95, especially if it not a very turn-key process). Note that I am a technician by heart so it is almost painful to write this. I love bandwidth, but I also like food. I need to keep my doors open to pay for food! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:27 PM, Brian Webster <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > I like the idea Chuck and others have used in regards to shaping. Give them > a wide open connection for a short burst of time and then throttle them > back > to what they are paying for (say a minute or so). This will give them > awesome performance for things like web pages and speed tests and most > email, yet when they decide to be hogs using technology that is a constant > demand on the connection, it won't cripple your network. This in > conjunction > with bandwidth caps should keep you solvent until the backhaul > infrastructure in the US gets more robust, more accessible, and cheaper. > Until then you just need to tell the clients the basic economic truth of > how > much constant internet really costs. Comcast and others are starting to bit > cap their services so they must be seeing the same things you are. Show the > customers your bill for your backhaul and ask them if they would like to > pay > that each month. Even those on FIOS and other Fiber technologies see those > realities once their internet destination goes outside the private fiber > circuits. FIOS may be fast but it sure exposes the sites and locations that > don't have huge pipes serving them. > > > > Thank You, > Brian Webster > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of Travis Johnson > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:15 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article) > > > Rick, > > Just for what it's worth, we are seeing an increase in overall usage as > well. We have been in the ISP business since 1994. It was only about a year > ago that we went over 100Mbps of incoming traffic during peak time... and > just today, we peaked at 176Mbps. So in a year's time we increased by 75% > the amount of bandwidth usage by our customers. Of course we added new > customers, etc. but that was at the same rate we have been adding customers > for 5+ years. > > Solution? There isn't a good one. I remember people saying things like "I > just leave my customers wide open because then they will use what they need > and then get off, so they are online less" and stuff like that. Those days > are long gone. If you give people a 5Mbps connection, they will use 5Mbps. > And now, rather than just doing what they were doing, they will just start > more downloads or movies or TV because they can. > > Travis > Microserv > > RickG wrote: > I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth > shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it). > It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits, > the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth > in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only > had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive and difficult to get > here, this has led to a sluggish network that I am having difficulty > resolving. Therefore, the customers have been complaining. The good > news is that after getting very creative, I have overturned some new > options but the cost is still a strain on the budget. My biggest > frustration is the never ending question: What will it take? It > appears that more and more people want constant multi-megabit speeds > on demand for less than $50/month. The oversubscription rate on a > $600/month T1 no longer provides for a valid business model. Heck, my > $500/month 5Mbps connection form Time Warner became quickly saturated > once I put it in. I expect my new 11Mbps connection for $600 will do > the same. The interesting part is that I continue to get pressure for > faster speed plans therefore pressure to make the same mistake my > predecessor made - offer plans with speeds that max out my capacity. > -RickG > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Steve Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rick, (everyone) > > So from that statement it appears that you are not using any bandwidth > limiting ore shaping at your AP or NOC. > Question 1. Is that for all Client levels or just your premium service. > Question 2. If you don't manage limits, was that always how you've > always done it? If not what made you decide to do it this way and what > kind of upstream hit did you take. > > I am considering giving more speed but I am concerned about the > additional cost to me for abusers. > > Steve Barnes > RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of RickG > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:04 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article > > Every SHOULD know that most connections are "shared bandwidth". The > keyword is SHOULD. But, peole only hear what they want to and everyone > I talk to that isnt a techie thinks they get the speed they bought for > $50 or less all the time! The marketing gurus have screwed up again > just like the "unlimited use" policy fiasco. So, I always try to > educate my users but they percieve this as my issue and that my > service is inferiro with cable or dsl. Of course, thats what feeds the > marketing hype with the speed in the first place. So, what to do? > -RickG > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Mike, > > You miss the point and possibly so does Josh. Because an AP can > deliver > "x" amount of throughput during a speed test between two location does > not mean that the same AP can deliver that amount of throughput to all > the customers simultaneously. The AP's throughput is shared between > all > of the end-users. When the AP maxes out, some (possibly all) of those > end-users must slow down. Some WISPs do not understand this and thus > they end up over-promising throughput and disappointing their > customers. > WISPs need to understand this or they will fail in this business and > give other WISPs a black eye in the process. Nobody is getting beat up > here; this has nothing to do with personalities. It has everything to > do > with the physics of data communications behavior. Everybody needs to > understand the true limits of their system. > > Why is this? Because the "air" is a shared medium. Throughput delivery > takes real-world time in intervals we call "time-slots". You can only > carry so much throughput during one time-slot. There area only so many > time-slots (fractions of a second) in each second. This is why > throughput is limited. Only so many users can be on one AP at the same > time if they are requesting a large amount of the available AP > throughput. A lightly-loaded system may appear to be able to deliver > max > throughput simultaneously to those few customers but when the AP is > heavily loaded with users who are vying for a lot of throughput > simultaneously then most of them will need to slow down because not > everyone will get all the time slots they need to carry the high > throughput (ex: video streaming) levels that they are requesting. > > Don't make this personal; that simply detracts from the very real > technical limits that a successful WISP must understand in order to > succeed and survive. > > jack > > > Mike Hammett wrote: > I didn't get that at all. > > It seems as though when anyone on this list suggests going faster > than 2 megabits, they get beat up. Sorry, Charlie, BA-II was > outdated > long ago. > ----- > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > > From: Jack Unger > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:55 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article > > > So how many of your customers can you serve 26 Mb to SIMULTANEOUSLY > from the same AP? It sounds like you are saying that you can serve > all > of them 26 Mb simultaneously. > Josh Luthman wrote: > Each customer has an MT - capable of 26mbps to their home. Each > tower has a > Redline to it, throughput as high as the key purchased (54 megs). > > Josh Luthman > Office: 937-552-2340 > Direct: 937-552-2343 > 1100 Wayne St > Suite 1337 > Troy, OH 45373 > > Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, > poorly. > --- Henry Spencer > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Josh Luthman wrote: > > My 5.8 customers can do 10+ megs... > > The estimated throughput on the MTs is 30 to 31 megs. Real bandwidth > tests > show 26 megs. > > > So do you deploy one MT for each customer or do you share that 26 Mb > between all of your customers on that one access point? > > Josh Luthman > Office: 937-552-2340 > Direct: 937-552-2343 > 1100 Wayne St > Suite 1337 > Troy, OH 45373 > > Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, > poorly. > --- Henry Spencer > > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:40 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > And which telco is this going to bail out? Money from Congress to > industry = pay off Unions for votes. > > We will never, ever, ever, ever qualify. > > Another headliner article I read on this will redefine "broadband" as > over > 10 Meg. > > Nothing like disqualifying almost the entire WISP industry... > > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > <insert witty tagline here> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick Harnish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> <wireless@wispa.org> > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:20 AM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article > > > > > Jeff, > > Just to let you know, I am in Washington DC this week participating > in > the > > > events below. WISPA has signed on as a supporter of the Call to > Action > to > > > define the Nationwide Broadband Strategy. It was great to see all > the > players of the Broadband Industry working together to attempt to > bring > the > > > US back up to the top of the Broadband Access ladder. It will be a > busy > three months while this strategy is defined and presented to the > Obama > Administration. > > Respectfully, > > Rick Harnish > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] On > Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:21 PM > To: 'WISPA General List' > Subject: [WISPA] Article > > > > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/02/AR20 > 0812 > 0203 > 164_pf.html > > New Coalition Drawing Up Nationwide Broadband Access Strategy > > By Cecilia Kang > Washington Post Staff Writer > Wednesday, December 3, 2008; D03 > > President-elect Barack Obama has said getting affordable high-speed > Internet > service to every American home would create jobs, fuel economic > growth > and > > > spark innovation. Yesterday, representatives from technology and > telecommunications companies, labor unions and public interest groups > frequently at odds with one another agreed to provide the next > president > with a roadmap for how to accomplish those goals. > > That map could include tax breaks, low-interest loans, subsidies and > public-private partnerships to encourage more investments in > upgrading > and > > > building out high-speed networks, representatives from Google, AT&T > and > public interest group Free Press said during a panel discussion on > broadband > policy that also served as a coming-out party for their newly formed > coalition. > > The details of how to meet those goals still must be worked out by > the > group, whose aim is to bring more affordable high-speed Internet > access > to > > > every consumer. > > Many of the group members have been at odds with each other on > whether > the > > > government should set limits on how much spectrum a company can > hold, the > use of unlicensed devices on fallow broadcast airwaves and net > neutrality -- > the notion that network operators should be prevented from blocking > or > slowing Internet traffic. The formation of the group is an effort to > move > beyond their differences. > > "The coalition is a positive in that it demonstrates we agree that we > > > have > > > a > broadband problem, which not everyone was willing to admit to two > years > ago," said Ben Scott, policy director at Free Press and a member of > the > group. "The key is whether we'll see this group produce policy > solutions > that will require difficult choices." > > At stake is the nation's ability to compete technologically and > economically, the group said. The United States has dropped from the > top > 10 > nations for broadband access, speeds and price in the last several > years. > The coalition is pushing for a federal plan that would provide access > to > high-speed Internet service, much as the government did with > electricity, > roads and phone service. > > Obama famously used the Internet for outreach during his campaign and > received 370,000 donations online. He's proposed using blogs, social > networking tools and community Web pages known as wikis to connect > citizens > to government agencies. And Obama has argued for massive upgrades to > technology infrastructure such as high-speed, or broadband, Internet. > > So far the coalition's plans to increase broadband usage mirrors > Obama's > plan, but there could be disagreement over deployment, analysts said. > > Communications Workers of America President Larry Cohen said the > union > supports a proposal by Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.) to > increase > definitions for broadband to 10 megabits per second for downloads by > > > 2010. > > > The current definition for broadband speed in the United States is > 768 > kilobits per second downstream, which is far below standards in many > > > other > > > nations. > > Achieving that goal at prices acceptable to consumers, however, would > be > expensive for telecom and cable network operators. Some in the > coalition > could push for laws that would achieve lower prices and higher speeds > through more wireless and telecom competitors, but that could cause > further > disagreement among members, Scott said. > > Some have already suggested requesting funds from the federal > economic > stimulus plan for broadband deployment. Yesterday, an aide to House > Speaker > Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said Pelosi was in favor of that idea. > > AT&T chief lobbyist Jim Cicconi said the company has moved closer to > the > view of public interest groups and Google that the Web should be open > for > all users without discrimination of technology and content on their > network. > But unlike Free Press and consumer groups, AT&T opposes new laws or > rules > on > net neutrality, saying Federal Communications Commission rules are > sufficient, and any violation should be handled on a case-by-case > basis. > "There will be significant outstanding debates that will be very > tough > and > > > there will still be daylight between the groups on many, many > issues," > said > Rebecca Arbogast, an analyst at investment firm Stifel Nicolaus. "But > > > both > > > sides are in a phase right now where they are emphasizing how much > they > share in terms of their views on what is an appropriate framework for > looking at this issue." > > > > > Jeff Broadwick > Sales Manager, ImageStream > 800-813-5123 x106 (US/Can) > +1 574-935-8484 x106 (Int'l) > +1 574-935-8488 (Fax) > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > ---- > ---- > WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > ---- > ---- > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirele > ss > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > -------- > WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > -------- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirele > ss > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > -------- > WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > -------- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirele > ss > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > -------- > WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > -------- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirele > ss > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > -- > Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. > Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 > Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" > WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? > For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping > FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger> > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger> > Phone 818-227-4220 Email <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > -------- > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > -------- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > -------- > WISPA Wants You! 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